Card and Rules Once Again

[Bandobras Took]

In a discussion over Adunaphel's ability over in the meccg.net forum, zarathustra posted the following:

I don't really see what all the fuss is about. A card's text does override the rules, yes, but only if there is no way to interpret the card's text without overriding the rules. If there is a reading of the card that is consistent with the rules, then that ruling is preferred over any reading that is inconsistent with the rules.

As this is the case, a few rulings need to be reevaluated:

1:

You may bring Aragorn II into play with Strider's company, removing Strider from the game and automatically transferring all cards on Strider to Aragorn II.

Strider's text does nothing to override normal character play rules except the Manifestation rule. Therefore it may only be done during the organization phase and may not exceed the one character/turn limit.

2:

A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play with direct influence at any Free-hold [F], Border-hold , or Ruins & Lairs [R]

This card in no way overrides the one/character per turn rule, and only dubiously overrides the organization phase rule.

Those are the two that first sprang to mind. I'll probably think of some more once I'm home from work and have more than a 15-minute break.

[Konrad Klar]

Problem of that logic is that there is no rule that forbids playing characters outside organization phase. There is only rule that allow bringing one charcter in organization phase.

Allowing something in one phase does not mean forbidding something in other phases. (assuming that something is allowed and not that only allowed)
I like precedences and consistecy. If in one particular situation some phrase means X, than in other situation the same phrase (in the same context) should also mean X.

[Bandobras Took]

Problem of that logic is that there is no rule that forbids playing characters outside organization phase. There is only rule that allow bringing one charcter in organization phase.

There is nothing on the card text, then, that permits the characters to be played outside the organization phase. In the absence of such, the rules must be followed as there is a valid way to interpret the cards within the context of the rules and that reading is therefore valid.

In the ME:LE rulebook, under the rules for playing characters, the very first requirement is that it be the organization phase. A card must directly override that requirement or it is still in force.

10. I can play only one character/wizard/ringwraith per turn?

***Except for the Balrog, you may only bring in characters, wizards or ringwraiths during the organization phase. Furthermore, you are limited to a single character, wizard or ringwraith (or discard one character) during the organization phase.

We Have Come to Kill overrides the one character/turn requirement. Nothing else is directly overridden by the card texts.

[Konrad Klar]

Nothing in WHCtK and ACM text's can direclty override CoE 11.

In the ME:LE rulebook, under the rules for playing characters, the very first requirement is that it be the organization phase.

I cannot find.

[Bandobras Took]

BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY
During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:
· You may play a non-Ringwraith character card. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site. If you do not have enough general influence or direct influence to control the character by the end of your organization phase, then the character is returned to your hand. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site.
· You may play a Ringwraith card if you do not have one in play. This is called "Revealing your Ringwraith." You may not reveal a Ringwraith if your opponent has already revealed that Ringwraith. You must place your Ringwraith at his home site or at Minas Morgul. You need not control a Ringwraith with influence - he represents you, the player. While revealing your Ringwraith is an advantage, it also carries with it the danger of losing the game by having your Ringwraith eliminated.
When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played. If the appropriate site is not available, you may not play the character.

It's the very first phrase after Bringing Characters Into Play. These are the rules for bringing characters into play; in order to bring a character into play other than by these rules, a card must directly override them -- according to Zarathustra's statement.

The important thing about the rules above is that these are not rules for the organization phase, of which playing characters happens to be a part; these are rules about playing characters in all cases.

[Konrad Klar]

Items, factions and allies must be played during the site phase.

Underline mine.

"During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:"

does my mean:
"Only during your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:"

In other words: If you have extra possibility, only usable in organization phase, this does not mean, that using the same possibility given by other cards is estricted to the organization phase.

[Bandobras Took]

"During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:"

does my mean:
"Only during your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:"

In other words: If you have extra possibility, only usable in organization phase, this does not mean, that using the same possibility given by other cards is estricted to the organization phase.

We are not speaking of an extra possibility. We are speaking of the only possibility. This same possibility is not given by other cards (according to Zarathustra's statement) unless it is specifically so written. The rules for bringing characters into play are unequivocal.

[Sauron]

CRF:
Hazards may only be played on a company whose movement/hazard phase is being resolved, or on the site they are moving to. Long-events and permanent-events may effect more than one company even though they are only played "on" one company.

CRF:
If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had been played as such from your hand.

So it's like a short event being played from your hand. So it must be played on a company who's M/H Phase it is.

[Konrad Klar]

We are speaking of a possiblility, that you consider as "only possibility".
In fact you can also influence and play a character during site phase without any additional cards/effects.
I don't make (here and in my previous post) any references to Zarathustra's statement, for not making things more complicated.
The rules for bringing characters into play are unequivocal. From other hand , interpretations of that rules are diametrially different.

BTW: Lidless Eye nor CRF says nothing about "one character per turn" limit.
Exsistence of such limit has been concluded from texts of the cards like the We Have Come To Kill, that says that character played with them does not count against "one character per turn" limit.

[Bandobras Took]

CRF:
Hazards may only be played on a company whose movement/hazard phase is being resolved, or on the site they are moving to. Long-events and permanent-events may effect more than one company even though they are only played "on" one company.

CRF:
If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had been played as such from your hand.

So it's like a short event being played from your hand. So it must be played on a company who's M/H Phase it is.

Wrong topic.

BTW: Lidless Eye nor CRF says nothing about "one character per turn" limit.

BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY
During your organization phase, you may perform one and only one of the following activities:
· You may play a non-Ringwraith character card. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site. If you do not have enough general influence or direct influence to control the character by the end of your organization phase, then the character is returned to your hand. You must place him at his home site or at any Darkhaven site.
· You may play a Ringwraith card if you do not have one in play. This is called "Revealing your Ringwraith." You may not reveal a Ringwraith if your opponent has already revealed that Ringwraith. You must place your Ringwraith at his home site or at Minas Morgul. You need not control a Ringwraith with influence - he represents you, the player. While revealing your Ringwraith is an advantage, it also carries with it the danger of losing the game by having your Ringwraith eliminated.

In fact you can also influence and play a character during site phase without any additional cards/effects.

and the revealed character card may be immediately played (appearing at the same site). In order to play this character, you must have enough unused general influence to control him or an influencing character at the same site must have enough direct influence.

I stand corrected -- there are two ways for a character to be brought into play.

Since the rules provide for character play as a result of successfully influencing a character, there's still no ground for Strider or Chance Meeting to stand on. Unless you'd like to suggest that either of those cards is used in conjunction with influencing.

These same rules say that one may play a faction successfully influenced from the opponent. In this case, the rules regarding normal play of a faction are superseded (the site does not tap upon the play of a faction that has been successfully influenced away from an opponent). But a card which allows the play of a faction under altered circumstances will not abrogate any of the rules for faction play except those specifically and directly altered by the card. Using Old Road/Hour of Need will tap a site for this reason, even though these cards have overturned this rule:

If one of your characters is at the site specified on a faction card, he may tap during the site phase to attempt an influence check in order to play the faction card.

This is because there is no direct contradiction on the card of the rule that makes a site tap after the successful play of a faction.

Likewise, in the absence of direct contradiction, there is no basis for saying that Strider's ability may be used at any time or in addition to the one character/turn limit (or according to the influence rules, if you can figure out how to work his ability there). Likewise Chance Meeting.

[Konrad Klar]

But a card which allows the play of a faction under altered circumstances will not abrogate any of the rules for faction play except those specifically and directly altered by the card.

Ok, so if resource short-event playable only in certain (X) phase allows play something that normally (without additional cards/effects) can be played in other (Y) phase, then you can accept such explicit case as exception. Otherwise, for you, resource short-event not restricted to any phase that is doing so must be played in phase Y.

For me, if resource short-event is not restricted to any specified phase, it can be played in any phase of its player turn. In other words such short-event may be played in any phase if other conditions are fulfiled. Text "playable in any phase" as perfectly duplicating with general rules does not need be explicitly given in text of resource short-event, likewise "playable during your turn" or "playable during opponent's M/H phase" in case of hazard short-events.

P.S. From other hand even if "Items, factions and allies must be played during the site phase." most of resource short-events allowing playing extra items or allies is "playable only during site phase". Why they are restricted to the site phase? Because its text is duplicating with general rules or because otherwise they could be played in any phase of its player turn.

P.P.S. That's all was already written in other threads, but if the same questions are returning, it is always oportunity to putting answers in new, more polished form.

P.P.P.S. Of course "does my mean:" is typo. Should be "does not mean". Sorry.

[Bandobras Took]

I see where you're coming from, and can accept it so long as Zarathustra's statement is not used as reason for pronouncing a ruling. So long as Zarathustra's statement is used, there is a way to interpret all these cards within the established rules of character play, and that interpretation limits them to the org phase, and, in the case of Strider/Chance Meeting, to one character/turn.

This is my argument.

[zarathustra]

Here's another couple statements to chew on:

"Always be nice."
"Never lie."

Obviously these can come in conflict. When they do, one has to try as best as possible to satisfy both.

Here's another three:

"A card's text does override the rules, yes, but only if there is no way to interpret the card's text without overriding the rules. If there is a reading of the card that is consistent with the rules, then that ruling is preferred over any reading that is inconsistent with the rules."
"Respect ICE-era rulings."
"Interpret cards with similar wording in the same way."

Capisce?

[Konrad Klar]

Fourth:
"Maintain that facts conforms to the old theory, as long, as it is possible.
Otherwise: remember that status quo has highest priority."

[Bandobras Took]

Here's another couple statements to chew on:

"Always be nice."
"Never lie."

Obviously these can come in conflict. When they do, one has to try as best as possible to satisfy both.

I could argue that falsehood is never nice and is therefore "never lie" is a complete subset of Always be nice. The two never come into conflict.

Here's another three:

"A card's text does override the rules, yes, but only if there is no way to interpret the card's text without overriding the rules. If there is a reading of the card that is consistent with the rules, then that ruling is preferred over any reading that is inconsistent with the rules."
"Respect ICE-era rulings."
"Interpret cards with similar wording in the same way."

Capisce?

So you agree that Adunaphel can target any company because it has a similar wording as Hoarmurath Unleashed?

Seriously, what's the Ice-Era ruling on Strider? It's no different than the text of the Witch-King or Khamul.

And there aren't actually any Ice-Era rulings on A Chance Meeting, so far as I can tell, just a player guide statement.

So all we're left with is interpreting the texts of Chance Meeting, We Have Come to Kill, Strider, the Witch-King, and Khamul in the exact same way because they have similar wording, and in a way which minimizes rules violation, as for the first principle.

Compris.