Ready to His Will (again...)

[Konrad Klar]

Please try to give us a little context when you make an argument... we're not stupid, but we don't always know what's in your mind. I realized eventually that you're referring to Marvels Told...

Why discarding of target non-enviroment hazard long-/permanent-event is main effect, not active condition?

The somewhat obvious reason is that -- except in very bizarre circumstances -- a player does not initiate Marvels Told at the cost of a long-/-perm event. Rather, he initiates MT with that as his goal. Hence, discarding the event is not an active condition.

Why "discard this item to" is printed on e.g Healing Herbs and "discard Wizard" (but not "discard Wizard to") is printed on Sacrifice of Form?

Because ICE had no idea how complex the rules they wrote really were.

If goal is criterium deciding that action is concidered main effect and rest (undesired effects) are active conditions then maybe cc from MT is active condition too? Regardless of order and style in which this action (cc) is printed on card (Because ICE had no idea how complex the rules they wrote really were.)

Sorry, player's goals are player's private things. Someone's main goal may be cc caused by MT (he want play Pledge of Conduct in response and transfer item), other's main goal may be discarding Wizard (especially if many hazard events are played on Wizard). Rest may be (desired or undesired) side effects for him.

You ask for context. Please compare Sacrifice of Form with Tower Raided. Discarding of 2MP item may be considered as cost but true active condition is bearing this item. Or Scimitars of Steel, Helms of Iron - discarding Nazgul (main effect), having Nazgul permanent event in play (condition).

[zarathustra]

If you don't like the term 'goal' you can substitute one you prefer. In any case, each card's effects must be divided up into 'cost' (active condition) and 'benefit' (proper effect). Unfortunately, ICE did not leave us with a simple set of criteria for making this distinction in all cases. Hence, we have to go card-by-card.

All that concerns me in this case is that tapping is a cost of playing Ready to His Will. I have argued that it is. You seem to want to argue that it is not, or at least that perhaps it is not. However, your method involves generalizing to all cards -- something I've found to be helpful only rarely in understanding meccg rules.

Do we at least agree on the content of our disagreement?

[zarathustra]

For those who are reading this, the relevant rules are to be found in the CRF Rulings by Term: Active Condition:

Active Conditions

* An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared. Active conditions serve as the price of an action. They are restrictions on the player invoking the action.
* Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.
* Annotation 6: If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.
* Annotation 7: If any other active condition for an action does not exist when the action is resolved, the action has no effect; if the action was playing a card from your hand, it is discarded.
* Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
* Your opponent's resources may be the active conditions for your resources, but may not be the targets for your resources.

[Konrad Klar]

Do we at least agree on the content of our disagreement?

In my opinion only "tap/discard to" or "tap/discard" printed in bold may be considered as active condition i.e. done at declaration. Otherwise tapping/discarding is part of main effect.
If tapped/discarded (as result of main effect) entity is target, then it must be in play at declaration and when to comes to resolve action. It (in case of tapping) must be merely in play, even tapped, unless specifically stated in card text that it must be untapped.
"any character in the company that now taps" in text of Ready To His Will is not target, because "any" indicate that may be freely choosen from among characters in the company at resolution of this card. Target is specified one "foo" and specifying it must be done at declaration, not at resolution according to:

Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.

[zarathustra]

I prefer annotation 5, which I think is directly relevant:

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.

Note that not even Concealment says that the character must tap in the first, bold sentence. This indicates that the active conditions for a card are not always in bold (or italics).

[Konrad Klar]

I prefer annotation 5, which I think is directly relevant:

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.

Of course. It is not even discussed. Discussed is that tapping mentioned in Ready To His Will (discarding in SoF) is active condition or not.

Note that not even Concealment says that the character must tap in the first, bold sentence. This indicates that the active conditions for a card are not always in bold (or italics).

"Scout only. Tap scout to cancel one attack against his company."

(Underline mine)

So no problemo here. If it would be "Tap scout and cancel one attack against his company." then I'd say that tapping is main effect. Usually cards having target that is tapped by its action (main effect) have active condition such that target must be untapped.

[Wacho]

At first I agreed with you Mark about the tapping being an active condition of Ready to His Will, but now I'm not so sure. Here's why. Annotation 5 states:

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is canceled.

I've put what I see as the relevant part in bold. However, the text of Ready to His Will says:

Playable on an Orc, Troll, Giant, Slayer, or Man hazard creature with one strike for each of its attacks. All attacks of the creature are canceled. The creature becomes an ally under the control of any character in the company that now taps. It has a mind of 1, 1 ally marshalling point, prowess equal to its normal prowess minus 7, and a body equal to 8. Place this card with the creature.

It seems clear that the attack is cancelled and then you tap a character to take control over the ally. If this was a true active condition you would have to tap the character at the declaration of Ready to His Will.

[Konrad Klar]

I'd say that tapping character is condition that this card is effective but not active condition. Similarly as discarding item for Token of Goodwill, and that company does not contain Beorn or an untapped warrior with prowess greater than 4 for Beorning Skin-changers.

[tharasix]

In my opinion only "tap/discard to" or "tap/discard" printed in bold may be considered as active condition i.e. done at declaration. Otherwise tapping/discarding is part of main effect.

You will never get that kind of consistency from MECCG cards. I don't have time to scour my cards to find a counterexample right now, but I'm sure there's an obvious one out there.

[Konrad Klar]

In my opinion only "tap/discard to" or "tap/discard" printed in bold may be considered as active condition i.e. done at declaration. Otherwise tapping/discarding is part of main effect.

You will never get that kind of consistency from MECCG cards. I don't have time to scour my cards to find a counterexample right now, but I'm sure there's an obvious one out there.

I disagree. This is one of sparse cases where texts of cards are regular and field of (mis)interpretation is narrow. Of course, someone may maintain that e.g discarding Wizard is active condition for Sacrifice of Form and bring this card as counterexample.

I see inconsistency somewhere else. Sometimes card seems as having active condition that target must be untapped and it is not printed on card even if is it is explicitly stated on card which mechanics is very similar.

E.g.

Far-Sight

Sage only during the site phase at an untapped site where Information is playable. Tap the sage and the site to search through your play deck and choose an item that you must reveal to your opponent. This item is placed in your hand and the play deck is reshuffled. The sage makes a corruption check.

Condition that site must be untapped is explicitly stated. Condition that sage must be untapped is not explicitly stated.


Ringlore

Sage only, only playable at a site where Information is playable, and only if a character in his company has a Gold Ring. Playable only during the site phase. Tap the sage and the site. Play to test a Gold Ring. No roll (or draw) is used. The player may replace the Gold Ring with any ring from his hand (except for The One Ring).

Conditions that site or sage must be untapped are not explicitly stated.

All Thought Bent upon It

Sage only. Playable during the site phase on an untapped sage at a site where Information is playable. Tap the sage and the site. Search your play deck and choose an item you must reveal to your opponent. Place this item in your hand and reshuffle your play deck. The sage makes a corruption check.

Both conditions are explicitly stated.

I hope that it is visible that tapping sage/site is not condition here (but main effect). This is mutually exclusive that
a) player must tap entity at declaration and have it tapped when to comes to resolution
with
b) entity must be untapped both at declaration and at resolution.

[miguel]

I hope that it is visible that tapping sage/site is not condition here (but main effect).

So I could play cards like Ringlore, respond with Marves Told (or even another Ringlore), and everything would be fine and dandy? I don't think so. Tapping the sage happens when you declare Ringlore. This issue is dealt with, so I'm locking the thread.

[Konrad Klar]

I hope that it is visible that tapping sage/site is not condition here (but main effect).

So I could play cards like Ringlore, respond with Marves Told (or even another Ringlore), and everything would be fine and dandy? I don't think so. Tapping the sage happens when you declare Ringlore. This issue is dealt with, so I'm locking the thread.

You are asking and locking thread without waiting for answer?

I think that active conditions of Ringlore are untapped site where Information are playable, untapped sage and hero gold ring. And I see such problem that untapped site, untapped sage are not explicitly stated. Although comparison with "Far-Sight", and "All Thought Bent upon It" may indicate that it should be stated here (in my opinion).
So first declared copy of Ringlore in your example cannot be resolved due of lack of active condition at resolution.

[miguel]

I think that active conditions of Ringlore are untapped site where Information are playable, untapped sage and hero gold ring. And I see such problem that untapped site, untapped sage are not explicitly stated. Although comparison with "Far-Sight", and "All Thought Bent upon It" may indicate that it should be stated here (in my opinion).

Well...

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.

Foo tapping includes the requirement for untapped foo. Example:

Scout only. Tap scout to cancel one attack against his company.

Tapping the scout is the active condition here.

Anyway, the objective of this thread was reached nearly 20 posts ago. Locked.

[Konrad Klar]

Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.

Foo tapping includes the requirement for untapped foo. Example:

Scout only. Tap scout to cancel one attack against his company.

Tapping the scout is the active condition here.

Anyway, the objective of this thread was reached nearly 20 posts ago. Locked.

Tap a scout agent at target company's new site. Agent may attack (not counting against the hazard limit) with a +4 modification to his prowess during the movement/hazard phase. Attacker chooses defending characters. A successful strike doesn't wound the defending character; instead the defender must discard one item (defender's choice).

Playable on an untapped diplomat agent. Tap the agent who may then make an influence attempt against a faction playable at the agent's site. +6 to influence attempt. Attempt is automatically successful if target faction is playable at agent's home site.
'Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.'-LotRIII

Cursive and bold printing are original.

Maybe difference between conditions "tap entity" and "entity must be untapped" is still not visible. Or it does not exist and phrase Playable on an untapped diplomat agent. adds nothing (because "Tap the agent" is condition, so after all agent must be untapped before declaration "Twisted Tales").

[miguel]

Or it does not exist and phrase Playable on an untapped diplomat agent. adds nothing (because "Tap the agent" is condition, so after all agent must be untapped before declaration "Twisted Tales").

That's pretty much it (thought that particular part adds "diplomat"). Locked and shot into space.