Wounded Noble Hound

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Konrad Klar
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Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:32 pm

Noble Hound wrote:Playable at any tapped or untapped Border-hold . In all cases, Noble Hound must be assigned a strike before any strike can be assigned to its controlling character. Discard Noble Hound to cancel any effect that would take its controlling character prisoner (does not protect other characters from being taken prisoner).


CRF, Errata(Cards), Noble Hound wrote:Card Erratum: Add the sentence: "If Noble Hound is tapped or wounded, treat it as
though it were untapped for the purposes of assigning strikes."


Carrion Feeders wrote:Animals. Each wounded character faces one strike. All body checks resulting from successful strikes are modified by +1. Each untapped character in the company may tap to cancel a strike against a wounded character. ...the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of the elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken.-Hob


Does it mean that Noble Hound never can be assigned to strike of Carrion Feeders?

I think that Card Erratum for Noble Hound should be rather:
"If Noble Hound is tapped or wounded, treat it as though it were untapped for the purposes of order of assigning strikes."

But I cannot make errata. :(
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm

I think you are right in that a wounded Noble Hound would not receive a strike. But is that really a problem? The dog seems very active and alert even when tapped/wounded, so it kind of makes sense Carrion Feeders can't get to it (nor its master)..? :)

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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:13 pm

Great Troll is also affected by this issue. And teleporting Alatar too.

I'm convinced that in all cases texts of these cards says about order of assigning strikes, not about eligibility to be assigned to strike.

EDIT:
Fixed typo.
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Yes it could well be that ICE never intended for Noble Hound to avoid a strike from Carrion Feeders. I think we agree that with the current CRF entry the Hounds do avoid the strike though. As you said changing this would require an errata, and that's outside the scope of this team. I am on the CoE errata team as well, but in my opinion we need to keep any errata we do issue down to a minimum. Changing how Noble Hounds act vs. two (?) rarely played creatures would be near the bottom of the to-do list imho.

I read Great Troll so that he would have to face a strike from Carrion Feeders when wounded. "You may assign a strike as though the troll were untapped" just means he can voluntarily take a strike when he normally could not, not that he can avoid one from Carrion Feeders. Imo there is a subtle difference between how Troll and Hound work.

I'm not sure how Alatar would work with Carrion Feeders. I guess if there are two wounded characters in the company he is joining, he would reassign one of the two strikes to himself? What if there are no wounded characters in the company (you are still allowed to play Carrion Feeders per Digest #50)?

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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:53 pm

How if Alatar joins a company facing an attack of Neeker-Breekers?
Does he must face strike, even if by no means (other than trick that would add him mind attribute) he is able to resolve strike?
What about Motionless Among The Slain? Can player assign strike of Carrion Feeders to unwonded character?

Because now is visible that problem is affecting more than one card and situation, more appropriate than errata is ruling for whole class of card's texts.

Proposed Ruling is simple.
All effects that reassign strikes affect only order of assigning strikes, not eligibility to facing strike.
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:16 pm

Yeah I think a ruling would be necessary. But that would not change Noble Hound avoiding a strike due to its CRF entry, correct? Or should 'facing a strike' and 'getting assigned a strike' be considered different things?

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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:26 pm

But that would not change Noble Hound avoiding a strike due to its CRF entry, correct? Or should 'facing a strike' and 'getting assigned a strike' be considered different things?
This would change it if "for the purposes of assigning strikes" counts as effect that reassign strikes.
Otherwise things does not change. Proposed ruling is so formulated that it precludes possibility that an effect may both reassign strikes and change eligibility.
"Can face a strike" is different thing than "is assigned to a strike".
Assigning strikes to characters (or vice-versa*) is process that takes place after determining which characters can face a strikes. Sometimes Ent allies cannot. Targets of Soyourn in Shadow etc. cannot.

"If Noble Hound is tapped or wounded, treat it as though it were untapped for the purposes of assigning strikes."
not only removes conflict of priorities that would happen if Noble Hound is tapped/wounded and its controlling character is untapped. It also affects order of assigning strikes in situations when other character in company is tapped/wounded (Noble Hound must be assigned to strike before him).
So i think that it reassign strikes.

P.S.
Gold Chains on The Wind is another affected card.

*) Seriously, I do not know that is correct: assigning strikes to characters, or assigning characters to strikes.
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Mon May 28, 2012 8:04 am

Ok. Slight rewording. Perhaps an example is in order as well?
Proposed ruling 2 wrote:Effects that reassign strikes affect only the order or assigning strikes, not the eligibility to face a strike. For example, Alatar cannot teleport to a company facing Neeker-breekers because he cannot face a strike from them.
I'm basing the Alatar example on
CRF: Card Errata and Rulings: Alatar wrote: When Alatar uses his special ability he must face a strike. Alatar overrides all other effects pertaining to the assigning of strikes.
Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned.

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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 28, 2012 1:04 pm

I do not think that teleporting and being assigned to strike are joint actions (like being discarded and discarding all non-follower cards by succesfully influenced character - if he is protected from discarding, he do not discard his cards too, second is only consequence of first).
I think that Alatar can join to the company even if he is not able to face strike ("join and face", not "join to face").

Otherwise (if I'm wrong on this) your ruling is OK.
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Mon May 28, 2012 1:36 pm

Yeah I debated about this with myself for a bit, it's close. It really depends how one takes the CRF quote about Alatar above. I feel like this might be a similar situation to Ready to His Will (character needs to tap or you can't play it). Of course we can do it the other way too, not a big deal.

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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 28, 2012 1:49 pm

I'm not trying to be obstructive needlesly.
But if example will be less (or not) controversial, it will be easier in future to make a ruling specifical to that controversial situation without affecting this ruling.

"For example, Alatar cannot teleport to a company facing Neeker-breekers because he cannot face a strike from them."
would be replaced by:
"For example, Wizard cannot be assigned to strike from Neeker-breekers because he cannot face a strike from them, even if Cloudless Day is in play."
(again, for example).
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Mon May 28, 2012 5:10 pm

Yeah another example would be fine too, but maybe we can figure this Alatar thingy out now. :)

FW Alatar is actually worded so that he clearly could teleport vs. Neekers (any CRF entries aside, I believe those were made before White Hand anyway). So yeah I'm fine with this.
Proposed ruling revision wrote:Effects that reassign strikes affect only the order or assigning strikes, not the eligibility to face a strike. For example, Alatar may teleport to a company facing Neeker-breekers, but he cannot face a strike from them.

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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 28, 2012 5:14 pm

I think that it is correct.
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Re: Wounded Noble Hound

Post by miguel » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:52 am

Published in digest #125. Locked.

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