My Precious -> Gollum Timing

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miguel
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My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by miguel » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:36 am

My Precious wrote:Unique. Manifestation of Gollum. Agent. May take an extra agent action (not counting against the hazard limit) each time he normally takes an agent action. If he attacks successfully against a company with a ring, he and a ring (attacker's choice) are discarded. If My Precious attacks and fails but is not defeated, the defender may tap a character in the target company to play Gollum (My Precious is discarded). Any player whose character eliminates My Precious receives -1 kill MPs.
Eric asked if you have time to untap a character before playing Gollum. I kinda said maybe yes, but I'm really not sure how it's supposed to work.
  • Does the ability to play Gollum somehow trigger (get declared) so that upon its resolution you tap a char (and have time to respond to its declaration by untapping)?

    Is it like playing a minor item, where you must do it immediately (My Precious doesn't say immediately), and tapping char to play Gollum is an active condition so there's no time to untap anyone?

    Tapping char as active condition, but without doing it immediately: Does the ability of tapping char in target company to play Gollum stick to that company, to be done at a later time? If so, how long would it stick?
Help! :?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:19 pm

Highlighted part of My Precious text assumes that My Precious is in play. It does not say "(if My Precious is in play it is discarded)".
There is no guarantee (with one exception) that My Precious will be in play at any moment after attack. It may be discarded in result of Withdrawn to Mordor played directly after attack.

"the defender may tap a character in the target company to play Gollum (My Precious is discarded)." means that discarding My Precious is condition, so it will precede even result of Withdrawn to Mordor declared (before or after tapping) in the same chain of effect. And this is that mentioned earlier exception.

But I do not mind to cheat. There is no rule that requires playing something only in guaranted playability time. Or I do not know that there is.
One sure thing is that My Precious must be in play as precondition to "tap a character in the target company to play Gollum (My Precious is discarded)". Again, nowhere is stated that the chance of playing Gollum expires once My Precious leaves play.

This post would be shorter if I would write: what is not forbidden is allowed. I cannot find anything that could explicitly, or implicitly forbid to play Gollum with company in question as long that company exists and My Precious can be discared.
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miguel
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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by miguel » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:02 am

It's weird, right? :lol:

So if we're not cheating, what you're saying is that as long as My Precious is in play and face-up, Gollum would be playable with the target company? I wouldn't call discarding My Precious a condition, I think it's done as a result so there aren't two manifestations of Gollum running around.

Another approach could be to look at the whole "play Gollum if" thing as an effect of the agent attack, and not the agent himself. Then because the effect is something that happens after the attack has been resolved, I think for timing purposes you'd need to declare this effect as a part of the attack (declared when the attack itself is declared). Because the effect that allows you to play Gollum resolves with the attack itself, it does not get declared again after the attack. Instead the target company can now tap a character in order to play Gollum in the following chain of effects. In this scenario there would be no time to untap a character first.

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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:09 pm

[...]I think for timing purposes you'd need to declare this effect as a part of the attack (declared when the attack itself is declared).
Something like "After attack, each character wounded by Ghosts makes a corruption check modified by -1"?
Which should be effective even if Ghosts are no longer in play?
And that are the timing purposes?
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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by miguel » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:03 am

Yes... Ghosts leaves play after the attack itself has been resolved, right? But the corruption checks still happen. So while resolving the attack, also the 'conditional effect' of creating corruption checks is resolved, which then triggers (or not) when all the strikes have been faced. Because Ghosts didn't create a passive condition, but rather what I'd call a conditional effect, it doesn't matter Ghosts is no longer in play when the corruption checks are resolved. (So the timing would work similarly to Greed which we previously discussed: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... f=12&t=541)

With My Precious it would be a little more tricky, because "tap to play Gollum" doesn't get declared like a corruption check would, the player would need to tap a character as the active condition of playing Gollum. But I think it could follow similar timing.

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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:45 pm

Proposed rulings:
All mandatory actions resulting from a conluded attack are declared as first actions of chain of effects that immediately follow the chain of effects containing the attack in order choosen by player proceding its turn. All non-mandatory actions resulting from a conluded attack may be declared only in this chain of effects (in response to mandatory actions if they are present).
alternatively
All mandatory actions resulting from a concluded attack are declared as first actions of nested chain of effects that immediately follow the attack in order choosen by player proceding its turn. All non-mandatory actions resulting from a conluded attack may be declared only in this chain of effect (in response to mandatory actions if they are present).
There is possiblity that two or more on-guard creatures are declared and resolved in the same chain of effects.
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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:42 pm

It may make sense to add:
"No other action may be declared in response, unless the action targets dice-rolling action declared earlier in the chain of effects"
to prevent abuse (last use of untapped characters after attack of Wild Fell Beasts, or Knights of Prince), although risk of abuse is minimal - after all characters may tap for most effects while facing attack.
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miguel
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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by miguel » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:57 pm

Yeah this is probably the cleanest way to handle My Precious (I need to look over the wordings with better time to choose between the two propositions). I think we should still let people respond normally to the stuff declared, risk of any kind of abuse would indeed seem minimal.

So in summary for Eric watching, you would not have time to untap a character in a My Precious --> Gollum scenario. :wink:

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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:48 pm

the cleanest way
Thanks.
So in summary for Eric watching, you would not have time to untap a character in a My Precious --> Gollum scenario. :wink:
Yes. Rest is mechanics working behind the scenes. :)
I think we should still let people respond normally to the stuff declared, risk of any kind of abuse would indeed seem minimal.
I have second thought. The same could be said about special actions resulting from successfull strike, or wounding strike. Almost anything could be played before last strike sequence, but... was not played, because player did not foresee that last strike will be successfull. He/she was counting that strike will be ineffectual at worst and decided to save Tookish Blood, or Nenya, or First of the Order* for better occasion.

*) Nenya and First of the Order do not target a corruption check.
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Re: My Precious -> Gollum Timing

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:40 pm

Ach...
Forget Nenya and First of the Order that do not target a corruption check.

Respective rules concerning special actions resulting from successfull strike, or declared in response to body check says "[...] are limited to those actions that directly affect [the dice-roll/body check dice-roll]". Not necessarily to those that target.

Tookish Blood (and tapping Magical Harp, or using Miruvor) remains valid example.
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