Influence check vs. influence attempt (Flatter a Foe)

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Manuel
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Post by Manuel » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:06 pm

This would mean, that Flatter A Foe would activate cc from Lure of Power.
I find that being correct, have seen that happening in some games.

Wacho
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Post by Wacho » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:17 am

I was taking another look at this the other day and I think Chad has this right. I think I can show why an influence attempt and influence check are not synonymous.

First, I think we need to take a look at these terms to understand their meaning not so much in a technical way but rather in a simple self-explanatory way.

The term influence check can be better understood if we compare it to other checks in MECCG. Along with influence checks there are also body checks and corruption checks. Each of these is a roll where the result is compared to the appropriate statistic. Body checks and corruption checks can occur in several different situations, and it stands to reason that influence checks are similar in this.

Influence attempt--I think this term can be better understood if we read it (and other such terms such as flattery attempt, offering attempt, etc.) as an "attempt to influence" instead. This I think makes it clear what is going on. You are trying to influence something. Normally this will include an influence check.

Ok, I know people will say that's nice theory but back it up with rules/card text. So here goes:

First, if we consider influence attempt and influence check to be the same that means that To Flatter a Foe is both an influence attempt and a flattery attempt. That doesn't really make much sense in my mind. Especially when I read these terms as an attempt to influence, or an attempt to flatter. Also, what does the flattery attempt mean in this case? It seems to have no effect.

Second, if influence attempt = influence check are the same then bringing Army of the Dead into play is not an influence attempt because there is no roll, no influence check. However, bringing a faction in play is clearly an influence attempt.

Third, compare the flattery attempt on To Flatter a Foe with the offering attempt of Token of Goodwill. Even though ToG is an offering attempt the character makes a corruption check. So it is not necessary that attempts and checks line up.

Finally, and I think this is the clincher, look at Foolish Words and The Riddle Game. Foolish words modifies "Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt..." note how the term riddling roll is used rather than riddling attempt. At first this seeming mismatch in the language doesn't make much sense but when you look at The Riddle Game it becomes clear. The Riddle Game is a riddling attempt in which both players make riddling rolls. However, only the person playing the card is making a riddling attempt. Foolish Words will hurt either party to the Riddle Game. This shows that the rolls and attempts are not synonymous (also look at the card Wit).

To sum up attempts are actions that normally include some sort of roll or check. There are many different types of attempts. Flattery, Offering, Influence, Riddling, and Burglary are the ones I can think of. Checks are a specific type of roll that compare a roll with a specific characteristic. These include body checks, influence checks, and corruption checks.

A card that modifies the roll of an attempt will modify that check or roll no matter what type it is. A card that modifies a check or specific type of roll will modify any attempt which includes that type of check or roll, no matter what type of attempt it is.

I think this is the only way to make everything consistent.

Wacho
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Post by Wacho » Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:00 pm

One more point. Twisted Tales allows an agent to make an influence attempt which is automatically successful if the faction is playable at the agent's homesite. No roll is made. No roll = no influence check. So you have an attempt without a check. Obviously these cannot mean the exact same thing.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:22 pm

...and don't forget Red Arrow.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

miguel
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Post by miguel » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:49 am

First of all I think Dave did a good job here. That was the kind of explanation I was looking for. His rules/cardtexts portion makes sense, and is probably as solid as it can be on this subject. I'd certainly be willing to reconsider before posting a ruling.

As a clarification to this part:
Wacho wrote:A card that modifies the roll of an attempt will modify that check or roll no matter what type it is. A card that modifies a check or specific type of roll will modify any attempt which includes that type of check or roll, no matter what type of attempt it is.
AFAIK Flatter a Foe and Token of Goodwill are the only cards like this. I couldn't find any resources that could be used in this manner, but Times Are Evil does modify offering attempts, so it makes sense as well.

:idea:

Mark?

zarathustra
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Post by zarathustra » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:56 pm

OK, I buy it. Now we need a new proposed ruling...
http://www.alfanos.org

Wacho
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Re: Influence check vs. influence attempt (Flatter a Foe)

Post by Wacho » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:16 am

How about...
The terms check and attempt are not synonymous. An attempt is a type of action by a character that endeavors to produce a certain result. There are several different types of attempts which include influence, burglary, flattery, offering, and riddling. An attempt will normally, but not always, include a dice-roll in the resolution of the attempt. This dice rolling action is often called a check. A check is a roll made that is compared to a certain characteristic (e.g. influence, corruption, body, etc). Checks are often called for when making an attempt but they also occur in other situations. A type attempt will usually include a check of the same type.

Any card that modifies an attempt will modify the dice-roll made during the attempt no matter what type of roll or check it is. Any card which modifies a type of roll or check no matter in what situation that roll or check occurs. This means that a card like Flatter a Foe which is a flattery attempt and includes an influence check may be affected by cards that modify flattery attempts and cards that modify influence checks, but not cards that modify influence attempts.

This ruling overturns COE 119 and upholds COE 52
Or if you want a more concise version...
The terms "influence check" and "influence attempt" are not synonymous. In general any card that modifies an attempt will affect whatever dice-roll is made in that attempt. A card that affects a check or roll will only modify checks or rolls of the appropriate type.

Note this ruling overturns COE 119

miguel
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Re:

Post by miguel » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:11 am

Wacho wrote:Third, compare the flattery attempt on To Flatter a Foe with the offering attempt of Token of Goodwill. Even though ToG is an offering attempt the character makes a corruption check. So it is not necessary that attempts and checks line up.
I'm not sure that is correct.
Token of Goodwill wrote:Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is cancelled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against Men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.
Times Are Evil wrote: All offering attempts and influence attempts are modified by - 3.
It just seems very counterintuitive that the modification from Times Are Evil would be applied to the corruption check instead of the roll + unused DI.

Wacho
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Re: Influence check vs. influence attempt (Flatter a Foe)

Post by Wacho » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:49 pm

Okay...looking back at ToG I think your intuition is correct. Still, I think my main point holds.

miguel
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Re: Influence check vs. influence attempt (Flatter a Foe)

Post by miguel » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:01 am

Great, just wanted to clear that up. I believe short & sweet is the way to go. :D
Proposed Ruling wrote:The terms "influence check" and "influence attempt" are not synonymous. In general any card that modifies an attempt will affect whatever dice-roll is made in that attempt. A card that affects a check or roll will only modify checks or rolls of the appropriate type.

Note this ruling overturns COE 119
Aye.

miguel
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Re: Influence check vs. influence attempt (Flatter a Foe)

Post by miguel » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:43 pm

Stickied so I remember to lock this after next digest... :lol:

miguel
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Re: Influence check vs. influence attempt (Flatter a Foe)

Post by miguel » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:24 am

Published in digest #122. Locked.

Locked

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