Council of Elrond

Joe Bisz, in an email wrote:I understand that for a haven squatting company, Hall of Fire triggers at the end of their m/h phase. However, when precisely does hall of fire's effect occur if a company is moving to a haven with Hall of Fire on it? Does a company need to be squatting to be affected by it (unless it is a moving company that is moving during the last m/h phase, thereby legally arrive at the haven "at the end of all m/h phases?)" See the various COE rulings quoted below here, which suggest that a company must actually BE at the haven to use the effects of Hall of Fire. They also suggest that although Hall of Fire can be triggered during the m/h phase on a company moving during the last m/h phase, the untapping effects are not actually *applied* until the site phase--is that also correct?

Also, does the ruling still stand that "the end of all Movement/Hazard
phases" = "the end of the last Movement /Hazard phase" ?

Finally, Chad ruled below that moving to a Hall of Fire haven then playing Bridge would not allow one to untap from Hall before Bridge's extra movement, because "the company is never at the haven." But if this strict interpretation of being at a haven is correct, why are cards like Bridge allowed to work at all, since they say "playable on a company that has moved to a haven this turn"--and a moving company has never moved to a haven until the end of all m/h phases, so unless it's the last company to take its turn, it shouldn't be allowed to move, right?

(COE Quoted)>>
Witnessed a game on GCCG yesterday that had two Hall of Fire on one copy of Isengard ( Fallen-wizard Haven) and a company moving to another copy of Isengard ( last Movement / Hazard phase). The player used the option to join both companies at the Haven at the end of all Movement/Hazard phases and claimed he could therefore untap two characters in said company. Was he right?

*** As there isn't supposed to be anything between phases ( we can't take actions there, so why would the game rules?), I believe the first option to be correct: "the end of all Movement/Hazard phases" = "the end of the last Movement /Hazard phase". So this untapping with Hall of Fire by joining the companies is legal.

>>
First, if one cannot take actions between the end of all m/h phases and the site phase, and if a moving company is not at a site until the site phase, why is this multiple use of Hall of Fire allowed to work?

*** Hall of Fire states that its effect occurs "immediately following [the company's] movement/hazard phase." This means that its effect is the first thing that occurs during that company's site phase. Since the companies have already joined, per the CRF, the ruling is correct. See Digest # 67 for the ruling in question.

>>
And finally what about Hall of Fire? I move to a Haven with Hall of Fire on it. Then I play Bridge. Am I allowed to untap / heal a character before leaving by Bridge?
*** No, because the company is never at that Haven.

Joe Bisz, in an email wrote:I understand that for a haven squatting company, Hall of Fire triggers at the end of their m/h phase. However, when precisely does hall of fire's effect occur if a company is moving to a haven with Hall of Fire on it?

Joe Bisz, in an email wrote:They also suggest that although Hall of Fire can be triggered during the m/h phase on a company moving during the last m/h phase, the untapping effects are not actually *applied* until the site phase--is that also correct?

Joe Bisz, in an email wrote:Also, does the ruling still stand that "the end of all Movement/Hazard phases" = "the end of the last Movement /Hazard phase" ?

• (1) We resolve movement/hazard phases normally, until we get to the last one.
  
  (2) Resolve that one normally, until we get to the 'end of movement/hazard phase', triggering effects like from Alone and Unadvised / playing cards like Bridge.
  
  (3) Then we move into 'end of all movement/hazard phases'. The companies combine. Cards affected by this are dealt with (Alone and Unadvised, Fellowship). Then we discard the old site and reconcile hand.
  
  (4) Beginning of site phase. Now it's allowed to tap for river and then face possible auto-attacks (and play cards affecting that).

Joe Bisz, in an email wrote:Finally, Chad ruled below that moving to a Hall of Fire haven then playing Bridge would not allow one to untap from Hall before Bridge's extra movement, because "the company is never at the haven." But if this strict interpretation of being at a haven is correct, why are cards like Bridge allowed to work at all, since they say "playable on a company that has moved to a haven this turn"--and a moving company has never moved to a haven until the end of all m/h phases, so unless it's the last company to take its turn, it shouldn't be allowed to move, right?

Bridge wrote:Playable at the end of the movement/hazard phase on a company that moved to a Haven [H]. That company may move to an additional site on the same turn. Another site card may be played and a movement/hazard phase immediately follows for that company.

Hall of Fire wrote:Playable on a Haven [H]. Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped). Discard Hall of Fire when the site card is returned to the location deck. '...people came here who wish for peace, and thought. There is always a fire here...'-LotRII

Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en-route between sites and not at any site.

Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]

Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/Darkhaven site may join at this time.

miguel wrote:A moving company is not at the site until the beginning of the site phase. This we are not going to change, period.