Hermit's Hill vs Hidden Haven

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Manuel
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Hermit's Hill vs Hidden Haven

Post by Manuel » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:22 am

The following question regarding the text of both hero and minion of Hermit's Hill interacting with Hidden Haven has been brought.
Hermit's Hill (hero)
site
Wold & Foothills
[Ruins & Lairs; site path Wi, opponent draws: 1, you draw: 1]
Nearest Haven: Lórien
Playable: Items (minor)
Automatic-attacks: Men - 3 strike with 6 prowess
Special: During the site phase, a company may discard two minor items they bear to make any one major item (including a hoard item) playable here that turn.
Hermit's Hill (minion)
Playable: Items (minor)
Automatic-attacks: Men - 3 strikes with 6 prowess
Special: During the site phase, a covert company may discard two minor items they bear to make any one gold ring item (regardless of its text restrictions) playable at this site this turn.
Hidden Haven
Rarity: C4
SP: 1
Permanent-event
Playable on a non-Dragon's lair Ruins & Lairs in a Wilderness, Border- land, or Shadow-land ; the site must normally be a Ruins & Lairs. This site becomes one of your Wizardhavens and loses all automatic-attacks. Nothing is considered playable as written on the site card. If one of your companies is at this site, all attacks against it are canceled. Other Fallen-wizards may not use this site as a Wizardhaven. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
According to Hidden Haven text, it is pretty clear that you can't play minor items at Hermit's Hill. Howewer, can you still discard two minors at the site to play a major item? (gold ring in the case of minion version)

My interpretation of this issue, is that hidden haven text doesn't go so far into preventing what would be playable at the site if certain conditions were met. However, I'm afraid it's only an interpretation and it needs a more solid reason, and probably a ruling.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:45 am

Personally I like strict interpretations of text as long as it does not lead to illogical results.*
I don't see such problems here. I'd say that if Hidden Haven is on Hermit's Hill , the company may discard items to make gold ring/major item normally playable at the site. It will not be playable due to text of Hidden Haven, however it may be played with help of Catch of Elusive Scent, or Thorough Search.




*) Sometimes a cards like The Fortress of Isen, or the Fortress of The Towers says that Cards that give marshalling points are not playable at the site by your opponent in all cases., while actually such cards cannot be played by opponent.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Wizardhaven wrote:If you are influencing against your opponent, and he is at a Wizardhaven where you can not play cards that give MPs, you can reveal the card you are influencing against to reduce the number you roll against to 0, but you may not play that card afterwards (if it gives MPs).
Characters are not playable in any way. Characters may be only played.
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Wacho
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Post by Wacho » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:11 am

If you use the special ability of Hermit's Hill you make certain items playable. This is written on the site card. Since Hidden Haven prevents cards from being played as written on the site card it seems to me that it would prevent this as well.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:08 pm

Hidden Haven played on Framsburg does not prevent from playing minor items with help of Bounty of The Hoard. You agree?
For Bounty of The Hoard, a site merely must contain hoard and must be tapped. Minor/major item does not need be playable there.
For Thorough Search item does not need be playable too. It must only normally be playable.

Hidden Haven (nor anything else) cannot change normal values, abilities, playability conditions etc. It only can change current values, abilities, playability condition etc.

If something is playable/unplayable it is playable/unplayable in general - never playable for one player and unplayable for others.
For minion players Gollum cannnot be played at Moria, but Gollum is still playable at Moria. CRF, Rulings by Term, Wizardhaven proves this statemet as that it says about characters (that are not playable in any way and may be only played at site).

Summing up:
Hidden Haven, Mischief in A Mean Way, Chamber in The Royal Court does not prevent from playing of anything. It only makes certain card not playable at site.

Guarded Haven, Fortress of The Towers, The Fortress of Isen does not change of playability conditions. It only prevents opponent from playing certain cards at site.

Normal remains unchanged in all cases.
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Wacho
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Post by Wacho » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:57 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:Hidden Haven played on Framsburg does not prevent from playing minor items with help of Bounty of The Hoard. You agree?
I actually think this should not be allowed. I know this is played otherwise but to me having a hoard is a playability condition. I can see the other side of the argument though and I'm not going to dispute it.
For Bounty of The Hoard, a site merely must contain hoard and must be tapped. Minor/major item does not need be playable there.
For Thorough Search item does not need be playable too. It must only normally be playable.
Right
Hidden Haven (nor anything else) cannot change normal values, abilities, playability conditions etc. It only can change current values, abilities, playability condition etc.
Right
If something is playable/unplayable it is playable/unplayable in general - never playable for one player and unplayable for others.
For minion players Gollum cannnot be played at Moria, but Gollum is still playable at Moria. CRF, Rulings by Term, Wizardhaven proves this statemet as that it says about characters (that are not playable in any way and may be only played at site).
Gollum is never playable by minion players. I suppose you mean Stinker. I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. If something isn't playable you can't play it and vice versa.
Summing up:
Hidden Haven, Mischief in A Mean Way, Chamber in The Royal Court does not prevent from playing of anything. It only makes certain card not playable at site.

Guarded Haven, Fortress of The Towers, The Fortress of Isen does not change of playability conditions. It only prevents opponent from playing certain cards at site.

Normal remains unchanged in all cases.
Again I don't see the difference between not being playable and not being able to be played. Normal of course means just as written on the card as you say.

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:12 pm

Wacho wrote:Gollum is never playable by minion players. I suppose you mean Stinker. I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. If something isn't playable you can't play it and vice versa.
I mean Gollum. Playability of Gollum is checked for purpose effect of cards like Come at Need.
Come at Need wrote:Playable if you have an ally in your hand. When this card is played, place one ally from your hand off to the side with it (the ally gives no marshalling points). The ally must be able to be attacked. If an opponent's company moves to a site where the ally is playable, it faces a single-strike attack (with no type) with the attributes of the ally, except the prowess is increased by 7. The attack is detainment if the ally and the company are both minion or both hero; and this card is discarded afterwards. If defeated, discard this card and place the ally in your opponent's marshalling point pile-he receives the ally's marshaling points as kill points. You may return the ally to your hand and discard this card during your organization phase.
Gollum is playable at Moria. And this is true regardless of whether Gollum can be played or not.
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Post by zarathustra » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:42 am

Proposed Ruling wrote:Hidden Haven negates the ability to discard two minor items in order to make a major item (at the hero version) or gold ring item (minion version) playable at Hermit's Hill.
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Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:04 am

That is not full answer. In fact this answer negates actual question.
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Wacho
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Post by Wacho » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:29 am

I think Konrad is right here. You can still discard the items to make something normally playable. Hidden Haven however negates all playability.

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Post by zarathustra » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:19 am

Proposed Ruling wrote:If you play Hidden Haven on Hermit's Hill, you may still discard 2 minor items to make a major (hero version) or gold ring (minion version) item playable at the site. However, even if you do this, you may not play the major/gold ring item, as per the text of Hidden Haven.
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:00 am

Proposed Ruling wrote:If you play Hidden Haven on Hermit's Hill, you may still discard 2 minor items to make a major (hero version) or gold ring (minion version) item normally playable at the site. However, even if you do this, it is not currently playable, as per the text of Hidden Haven.
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miguel
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Re:

Post by miguel » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:24 pm

Once more, with feeling.
Proposed Ruling wrote:If you play Hidden Haven on Hermit's Hill, you may still discard 2 minor items to make a major (hero version) or gold ring (minion version) item normally playable at the site. However, even if you do this, the item is not currently playable, as per the text of Hidden Haven.
Can a brother get an 'aye'? Dave?? :wink:

Sauron
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Re:

Post by Sauron » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:47 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Proposed Ruling wrote:If you play Hidden Haven on Hermit's Hill, you may still discard 2 minor items to make a major (hero version) or gold ring (minion version) item normally playable at the site. However, even if you do this, it is not currently playable, as per the text of Hidden Haven.
I don't think this is right. Normally in all other contexts in this game mean as written on the card. As written on the card only minor items. This would be something special to allow items to be played, and since it's special it's not normally.

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Re: Hermit's Hill vs Hidden Haven

Post by miguel » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:29 pm

CoE Digest #95 wrote:Does "normally worth" include "normally worth under specific circumstances?" I.e. the Red Book has a printed value of (1) item MP. Does that count as being "normally worth 1 MP?"

*** CRF, Rulings by Term, Normal:
Normal means as written on the card, not considering other card's effects. Note that this definition only applies to effects refering to card texts.

Given that the definition of normal refers to "other cards" and not effects on the card giving the MPs in question, cards with an MP value in parenthesis are normally worth the number of MPs that the card gives at any given time. In other words, Durin's Axe is normally worth 2 MPs unless held by a Dwarf. Then it is normally worth 4 MPs. Similarly, The Red Book of Westmarch is normally worth 0 MPs until stored at a Haven, at which time it is normally worth 1 MP.
I think Hermit's Hill falls under a similar normally under specific circumstances type of deal.

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Re: Re:

Post by Wacho » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:55 am

miguel wrote:Once more, with feeling.
Proposed Ruling wrote:If you play Hidden Haven on Hermit's Hill, you may still discard 2 minor items to make a major (hero version) or gold ring (minion version) item normally playable at the site. However, even if you do this, the item is not currently playable, as per the text of Hidden Haven.
Can a brother get an 'aye'? Dave?? :wink:
Agree.

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