CRF, Company wrote:A hero company is Wizard player’s company, or a Fallen-wizard’s company that has no Orcs or Trolls. A minion company is a Ringwraith player’s company, or a Balrog player’s company. An overt company is a company with Orcs and/or Trolls in it. Note that some allies can make a company overt, but Half-orcs do not.
Beorning Skin-Changers wrote:As a creature, playable only against minion companies. (. . .)Alternatively, playable as a short‐event against a moving hero company.
As a FW Company with Orcs/Trolls is not hero, and is not minion, Skin-Changers cannot be played at all, either as a creature or event, against such a company.
Just in case anybody's sick of the bears.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
White Hand wrote:Overt companies are not minion companies for the purposes of the detainment
attack guidelines in the MELE rules (p. 31). Overt companies are minion companies
for hazards that can only attack/effect minion companies (e.g., Sons of
Kings).
Non-overt FW companies containing Half-orc characters are not hero companies and are immune to Beorning Skin-Changers both as event and crreature.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
By the same logic someone could not reveal Great Secrets Buried There according to the effect of Spying out the Land and play it anyway, because the card may also be played as resource.
If played as a creature Beorning Skin-Changers can only be played against a minion company (FW overt company counts as a such for the purposes).
Similarly Gnaw with Words played on a diplomat does not require the target be a sage.
Beorning Skin-Changers is not a card that has different effect depending on type of company against which it is has been played at resolution of the card.
Not Slay Needlessly is such a card; it may be played regardless of type of defending company but acts differently depending on the type of the company at resolution. If the company is covert the attack is cancelled, otherwise its prowess is modified by -2.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
And therefore, if FW Overt Companies were minion companies for the purposes of hazards which only required a Diplomat, nobody would argue that Gnaw With Words only required a Diplomat.
Spying Out The Land says "only those hazards may be played during the company's movement/hazard phase." I'm uncertain why Great Secrets would be forbidden, since it was revealed as a hazard and would be played as a hazard.
By no stretch of the imagination can Skin-Changers only attack/affect Minion Companies, because it can affect Hero companies. One of its abilities can only attack Minion companies, but the hazard must be considered as a whole. A card with alternate uses does not have only one use.
Edit: Put another way, the rule asks whether a hazard "*can* only attack/affect minion companies", not whether the hazard currently *is* only attacking/affecting a minion company. The rule examines capacity, not application.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 5:34 pm
By no stretch of the imagination can Skin-Changers only attack/affect Minion Companies, because it can affect Hero companies. One of its abilities can only attack Minion companies, but the hazard must be considered as a whole.
This is just the moot point.
In my opinion:
If played for primary use, then conditions/effects of secondary use are not taken into consideration and vice versa.
Searching Eye may not fizzle/cancel Ruse played for its first use. Twilight may evade Spying out the Land if played as a resource in M/H phase.
Text of card as whole is taken into consideration when a card is refereed as an unit. Ûvatha the Horseman may tap to search and return to hand a creature/short-event or creature/permanent-event card.
Palantír of Annúminas may be used to search and return to hand Gnaw with Words (one of its uses requires a sage, other does not); it may not be used to search and return to hand Vein of Arda (its only use requires "Sage or Dwarf").
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Uvatha is a good example. He currently asks if a hazard is a creature. If his text were "a hazard that is *only* a creature", then Creature/Event hazards could not be retrieved.
Likewise, the FW rule checks for whether a hazard "can only attack/effect minion companies." If a hazard can attack/affect non-minion companies, a FW overt company is not a minion company.
You also seem to be under the impression that the FW rule checks for how the hazard card has been played. It doesn't. That would be nonsensical, because whether a company is hero or minion determines playability conditions for some cards in the first place. (See also Fear Fire Foes.) The card must be playable in the first place, or you can't play it, period.
So Searching Eye asks if the card requires the Scout skill. But it does not say "requiring *only* scout skill." That is crucial. "Only" is exclusive. Without that, one checks merely for the presence of (X). When "only" is added, then one checks for the presence of (not X).
Gnaw vs Vein is interesting (should "Sage or Dwarf" be treated as an exclusive or?) in many ways (and I don't necessarily agree with the official ruling), but it is also far afield of the fundamental point: the use of "only" in the FW rule is what makes it an exclusive rather than inclusive requirement.
So long as it is exclusive, any hazard must be checked to see if it *can* be used against a non-minion company. At no point does the rule check to see how the hazard *is* being used.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
Well, add Nothing to Eat or Drink to your immunity list.
Playable on a minion company at or moving to a Free-hold [ ] or Border-hold [ ], or playable on a hero company at or moving to a Shadow-hold [ ] or Dark-hold [ ]. The prowess and body of each character in the company is modified by -1. Discard this card during its organization phase if the company is at a Haven/Darkhaven [ ]. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.
EDIT: added quote
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
White Hand wrote:Overt companies are not minion companies for the purposes of the detainment
attack guidelines in the MELE rules (p. 31). Overt companies are minion companies
for hazards that can only attack/effect minion companies (e.g., Sons of
Kings).
does not cover resources, overt FW company is immune to All the Bells Ringing.
Playable during opponent’s site phase before strikes are assigned on a hero company at a Free-hold [ ] or Border-hold [ ] if a minion company attacks. The attack is canceled and the minion company must face all automatic-attacks of the site—which attack normally, not as detainment. Afterwards, the minion company may attack the hero company again.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.