Well it is about Hoard Well Searched, since I maintain that this card is meant for items you need/want very much, or that you think opponent needs/wants so you can annoy him. There isn't much in the first category, so that means the power to play item from sideboard is more limited than you think, if there is a big drawback of course. It's nice to reserve some item so you can get it whenever you want, but if it means a big load of trubbles, then I'd rather wait till I draw it and play it somewhere else...
I still like the idea of Axe, but it is a pitty Balrog can't get it, because I made the dwarf requirement. Would be nice if you can force/lure Balrog to visit Dwarf-hold.
Or, out springs Big Red, kills some dwarves and becomes Lord and Usurper, and "Hey, what do we find here, I've been missing that Axe for some time now."
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
by the way, you should make the card playable at the organization phase, so if you can't get into the site and play the item, the opponent has the chance to get it. The way it is made now, you could enter the site, then play the card and bring the item into play after the attack giving no opportunity to the opponent of getting such item. I mean you could play HwS during site phase. Also, being played during organization phase makes your movement a bit more predictable and opponent can be better prepared to stop you...
items you need/want very much, or that you think opponent needs/wants
this are generally very powerful items and they see much play already, don't you want to encourage the play of other cool less played items?
hmm, i thought about that, but I don't like to restrict it to org phase, since that means holding on to the card for a long time, and I generally dislike such thing, cards need to flow. I could make it: 'item can't be played this turn', that is even better because then opponent has a full turn to get there faster than you.
Of course I want to see the other items more in play, but if that means this card will see less play because people don't like those items in relation to the risk, then it's not worth it. You seem to think the card is good enough to lure people into using it for those items, but I don't think so. But those that want it, can still get Coat and Necklace this way
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:hmm, i thought about that, but I don't like to restrict it to org phase, since that means holding on to the card for a long time, and I generally dislike such thing, cards need to flow. I could make it: 'item can't be played this turn', that is even better because then opponent has a full turn to get there faster than you.
aye! i like that
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Of course I want to see the other items more in play, but if that means this card will see less play because people don't like those items in relation to the risk, then it's not worth it. You seem to think the card is good enough to lure people into using it for those items, but I don't think so. But those that want it, can still get Coat and Necklace this way
IMO Coat already sees lot of play (at minions deck more than any other). I think the "other" items are nice too but they see less play because there are resources that can be played more easily or are better to tap a site with (i.e: necklace - lonely mountain - smoug roused). I think necklace will se much more play with this card since it is a very cool item, even more now with the new Usriev V that can be stored for 3 MPs.
The fact that your card brings items from sb and don't occupate slots in deck is already enough good to give it some tries
Hoard Well Searched V:
Place one of the following items with this card from sideboard: The Arkenstone, Necklace of Girion, The Mithril-coat, Ancient Black-axe, Iron-shield of Old, any hoard or gold ring item (except Thong of Fire). Item is considered 'off to the side', it may be played as if from hand, and if it's unique it may only be brought into play during the site phase at any Dwarf-hold (even if site is tapped). Any company containing a Dwarf may play any version of this item at any Dwarf-hold from hand or sideboard: minion companies may play such item only after facing an attack: Dwarves 3@10 (cannot be cancelled). A Balrog company may likewise play item if Lord and Usurper is in play (ignore attack). Item may not be played in the turn this card is played. Discard this card after the succesful play of any version of the item. Cannot be played by a Balrog -or fallen wizard player.
hope it's no too long
Made it so Heroes can also play items from sideboard. This will make it easier for them, so minion just has to prepare with hazards, or go there himself to attack hero or malady or snowstorm or otherwise.
Made it so Balrog can also play item, even though he doesn't have dwarves, but only if he is Lord. I've been doubting whether it should not be playable on fw/balrog at all, or just not be duplicatable for them so they can play one such item. Decided on not playable, since both can quickly play and recycle the card, and also if opponent plays this the advantage might be considerable.
Made it so minion opponent can also play item (e.g. if he plays the same strategy), if he has a dwarf.
edit: 'off to the side and unique' clause, to make non-uniques still playable at other sites. I'm supposing off to the side means by way of the rules that it's in play for purpose of uniqueness?
edit: added 'any Dwarf-hold' clause to leave options open for King under Mountain and possibly Moria V cards.
Last edited by Thorsten the Traveller on Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
I think it is way too confusing.
Also restricting the play of several items suddenly at Dwarf Holds rather sucks. I would play this a a FW just to secure the ABA from Balrog. Chances you see Lord and Usurper are rather slim.
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.
Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
well I only increased the possibilities when compared with former version, and made it playable from sideboard like you suggested. FW can't play this card. And we all agree the ABA is cheezy for Balrog anyway...
how is this card confusing? Any player with a dwarf may play item at dwarfhold, from hand or sideboard. Since Balrog is only one who can't play a dwarf, he must be Lord. That's it.
Pitty you don't like the idea of special places where items are playable. I always thought there aren't enough special items. Arkenstone playable at The Stones, sounds funny but is rubbish of course, like some dwarf left it there...
this card was designed to bring different alignments together in a race. I don't see too many restrictions on play. If you want to play a hoard item, you're in the neighbourhood anyway. Minion has advantage of preparing hazard portion, hero advantage of playing easy item. Like Legendary Hoard, but then inter-alignment.
I do see a problem with non uniques, don't know if you were referring to these? Of course non uniques may still be played at other places, I'll have to see how I can formulate that.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
The problem with this card I find that its too confusing for some players how and what is possible. I still remain by the fact thats it way too easy to get the Arkenstone out that quickly. If the card is out with the Arkenstone it forces me to go to a sepcific place which might be totally out of my reach. WHat if I play a Dwarven Mordor raid... then I have to go up north, and face dragons which I have little protection for, because I dont expect to see them inside Mordor.
In short it forces a serious breach of plans which is not good for the game.
Also if I have the item in the deck I cant play it while the opponent has it waiting for him. I still need to draw it.
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.
Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
If you have it in deck, you were planning to play it. There is no drawback to having it stacked somewhere, except for the Arkenstone minion, but a simple solution is to have it in sideboard then. Nobody plays Arkenstone, so this is good for upping that, and there is not that much difference between having a unique resource in deck or in sideboard, the chance of drawing it really early is small, and if you crave it you will include ways to grab it, so no problem there.
I do agree I didn't realise that now Arkenstone doesn't have to backfire on minion anymore because to fetch it you need a dwarf, but you can also just play it without a dwarf. Have to think about that, it's not just.
If you're playing dwarves in Mordor, play a low-minder at Blue Mt Hold to fetch it. If your avatar is already out, send Ioreth there No that might be a problem I agree, we are discussing a card for playing chars at home site, that would help. For the moment, too many heroes would have a feast with Cirdan/Pallando sitting so close to Blue Mt Hold.
But if you're worried about Arkenstone being in play really quickly, I'd say: pray it's in play quickly, then you can better deal with it, you might not be in Mordor yet and have many dwarves in play. I'm more worried of it showing up in the (next to) last turn.
Remember though, each deck has a nemesis: improvisation is the key. Haven't seen too many dwarven Mordor decks yet, and you're supposing everybody would play Hoard V.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
I am more consered that its an extra way to play the stone for minion, compared to hero. Also in any dwarven deck that goes for an area that contains greaters, i ALWAYS play Arkenstone. It protects me from troubles with the minion, and its a friggin 5 MP.
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.
Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
I understand. But, you got a turn advantage over the minion when he plays Arkenstone under HWS still. And at least you have some knowledge about what he will pursue, so you can prepare, those are advantages too. I suppose HWS makes playing Arkenstone alot more difficult for minion, it's not too difficult to just play it at Moria.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Surprise, but I am with Eric on this one.
I find it neither complicated nor undefendable, since you can prepare better for a minion company moving to a Dwarf-hold, than a first turn play of the Arkenstone at the Lonely Mountain or Moria.
Also for the wording I would rather have it playable at any dwarf-hold, it is also shorter on the text (which I will use for some future dreamcard)
this makes it possible to find the NEcklace of Girion of you at the site where an opponent played the King under the Mountain, which is definitly cool
Yes that's a good idea, will do. Will make it easier for your dreamcard section though, more places to play it.
Hopefully that also might create some space so I can add the dwarf requirement again. Tricky little thing to construct efficiently, this card.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Rethough and rephrased this one, hopefully it goes down easier now...
Hoard Well Searched V:
Not playable by a Fallen Wizard player. Place one of the following items with this card from sideboard: The Arkenstone, Necklace of Girion, The Mithril-coat, Ancient Black-axe, Iron-shield of Old, any non-unique ring. Item is considered "off to the side": it may be played as if from hand, is worth no MP's, and unique versions may only be brought into play at a Dwarf-hold. Any company may play any version of this item from hand or sideboard, during site phase at a tapped or untapped Dwarf-hold: hero companies must contain a Dwarf, minion or overt companies only after facing an attack: Dwarves 3@11 (cannot be cancelled). Item may not be played in the turn this card is played. Discard this card after the succesful play of attatched item or of any unique version of the item. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
There were a few points of discussion, to sum up:
-Black Axe or not? Added again Black Axe and left out Usurper clause: I really like the idea the dwarves have hoarded underdeep items from theire expeditions, and that minions have alternative for going down, since Balrog doesn't need Usurper anymore nor do minions need a dwarf, I think playing Axe at Dwarf-hold is not that bad for Balrog/minions, and it stops the cheezy under-leas squat and who can be against that? And after all, any axe should be in a dwarven hoard! The other items are for vs. hero competition, you can even lure them into CvCC. But if we leave out Axe, there is really not much for vs. minion competition.
-Arkenstone too strong? I think text of Arken should not apply while it's off to side. I looked up in rules, but 'off to side' only says it's in play for purpose of uniqueness, it doesn't mention whether text does apply, though I would say that since 'they cannot be affected by the game', this would imply they don't affect the game either. If text doesnt apply, then Arken isn't so bad to add to this card, considering you know where opponent will be heading and you can prepare some nice hazards for him.
-Left out Dwarf requirement for minions to make card easier, and usable for Balrogs; why not after all, can be nice in combo with Usurper? In stead upped a bit the attack because overts are stronger.
-Iron Crown or not? Didn't add Iron Crown because Fury of IC must still be playable.
-Dwarven Rings or just gold rings? decided not, they would be on the Lord's finger anyway and not lying around in a hoard, so made it non-unique ring, maybe nice strategy for Spirit Rings. Some say to change the ringplay mechanism is blasphemy, but I'd say for the magic/spirit rings it might be worth a try.
-Duplicatable? not by a player, but yes by multiple players.
-hoard items? I removed hoard items with great pain, because with this title how could it not be for hoard? But fact of matter is there are no unique minion hoards, except Thong and that was banned, so there is no point other than annoing opponent, which I think is not such a viable strategy, because one can't know if opponent's planning to play Shield/Ringil/Belegennon/Horn, mainly Emerald is a standard in dragon country decks, so now there's no more fuss over that. Oh yeah, there's Thror's Map too....can't use that one, that'll teach them!
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
this is the version i came up with after your previous suggestion:
Hoard Well searched V wrote:Non-Balrog Minion only. The Arkenstone, Necklace of Girion, The Mithril-coat, or a hoard/gold ring item (except Thong of Fire) may be placed off to the side with this card and gives no MPs. Any company containing a Dwarf may play any version of this item at any Dwarf-hold from this card, hand or sideboard: non-Balrog minion companies may play such item after facing an attack: Dwarves 3@10 (cannot be cancelled). A Balrog company may play it if Lord and Usurper is in play. Item may not be played in the turn this card is played. Discard this card after a version of the item enters play. Cannot be duplicated
