They ride together???

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:59 pm

I don't get it, in my proposal you could still move to a Darkhold with starter to hunt your opponent, what has changed there? From Morgul all Darkholds can be reached with starter? And you can always move to havens, so, what's the problem? Ah you mean you'd end up with only 2 copies inverted at a DH if you want to attack? that's true. Then again, if you attack you're not going for mp's because you might easily get some rw discarded.

obviously Marcos, killing/discarding 1 RW would mean with 3xTRT: 3x(8/3)=6 (round down). that's math for babies :wink:

@Leon: to get 9 out you'll need some horses probably (unless you boost DI), a cave drake can easily kill a horse, so discarding a horse shouldn't be a great problem. Just realise that if you'd want the mission destroyed with one RW leaving company (which I don't think is fair thematically either), people will only move to Barad-dur and back. I think losing 3 mp's by killing a RW is ok too.

@Joe, if peeps move back and forth between dangerous places, I don't really mind. Ok, is Dead Marshes dangerous? no, indeed, nor is Mount Doom or Nurniag Camp, so what does it matter? In fact, I'd skip shadowholds also then, or we should state: no site in Mordor. What honour is there for the RW's to move around mordor?

But, in sum, I like version 1 (i.e. Joe's revision of my second version).

the speed matter: actually every RW has at least 3 DI, including himself that means he needs a max of 5 horses, 4 if we exclude Uvatha as your RW, but with each point of DI extra he needs 1 less and Witch-king, Dwar and Khamul only need 2 horses. Since you can start the game with this card, I can already move, in the positive scenario I get 9 rw's, by turn 3. Why then is the speed up necessary by adding the ring clause? It's not that I object, but I don't see the need either.
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:15 pm

I get 9 rw's, by turn 3
i'd really like to see that...

I've tried this deck a lot of times and most of the time, I never got the 9 in play by the time i exhaust my deck, because it is mostly sure that any of them will be at the bottom

anyway, i'm not sure how adding the ringplay cause will help with speed on getting all 9s out. I'm with Thorsten by saying that the clause is unnecesary

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Post by Frodo » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:34 am

Re hunting down opponent: Thorsten, you’re right, I missed some of the details (only got it half-right). This looks okay to me then.

Boder and everyone else, we are forgetting that TRT will not necessarily be used in a deck that is trying to get all 9 RW out. If they are not trying to get all 9 out, then all they need is the easier-to-play Black Rider to leave a Darkhaven and start making some real moves (plus forced marches if they want more than one turn doing this). Thus, Black Rider is a viable card. Even if they ARE trying to get all 9 out, by Eric’s own math, you might be able to play 9 RW by turn 3, or at least a number of RW than is greater than the number of organization phases you have had, which means with only one TRT on the table at the start of game, getting an extra immediate Black Horse DOES help you slap them on your RWs faster, and even two TRTs to start gives you a max of 4 Black Horses by Turn 2, and 6 by Turn 3, so again the extra Black Horse could conceivably help you if you’ve drawn your RWs quickly enough. Also in this situation, the Black Rider will always help because the turn you finally leave the darkhaven, if you don’t have enough Black Horses yet, you can slap down BR during the org phase and leave immediately—rather than waiting another full turn to play those Horses in the site phase.

Thorsten, you wrote: “Since you can start the game with this card, I can already move,” but you know that’s not literally true, right? Nothing on TRT allows RWs to have enhanced movement (until the 9 come out, and that’s only on the new copy).

In summary, if you don’t think you’re coming back to a Darkhaven, Black Rider effectively gives you movement capability for ALL your RWs, rather than Black Horse.

I’m pretty sure we’ve had this discussion before. Unless I’ve made a math error in the above, let’s move on to the remaining issues:

1) If we agree that it would be nice to have a partial MP reward for X remaining RWs, and I think it would be—
2) And that the RW player should have a chance to untap or not untap his TRT if he needs to move again—

that only leaves the issue of what sites should be allowed. Thorsten pointed out that there are also shadow-hold sites in Mordor that would create cheesy or too-safe of a movement; I like his suggestion of limiting the extra movement to “non-Mordor sites,” but part of me hesitates at introducing a keyword which hasn’t been used before (“Mordor”). Do we think people will figure out what “Mordor” means? We could also try saying “to a site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth.”

Suggested Rewrite:
“tap this card when the company finishes moving; it may move again using region movement to a non-Mordor site.”
OR
“tap this card when the company finishes moving; it may move again using region movement to a site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth.”
--Frodo

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Post by Leon » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:39 am

The part I would use this card for is playing 3 RW with Black Rider; this should be quite feasable and you get a very strong company to influence dragons and that sort of things.

I will probably never build a deck to get all the 9 out. Perhaps getting 1 Mp per 3 RW is an option, so you can start using your RW company early on and still get some MP.

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:10 am

since non of the darkhavens are adjacent to gorgoroth, this means you can still use TRT to move to a haven...
but I like the Gorgoroth idea, even when I said Mordor I knew it was far fetched to introduce that term (used in dreamcard setting), but Gorgoroth excludes the dark domains, so you can face at least elf lords and some drakes.
“Since you can start the game with this card, I can already move,” but you know that’s not literally true, right?
since you can use BR first turn, I don't see what difference it makes that it's not TRT but BR that actually makes you move :? Anyway, as Marcos said, the speed is limited by getting all rw's out, not by the horses.
And indeed Leon, I think you might be right, this might be a no brainer
for active RW decks, though Khamul Unleashed is also awesome. The mp boost is maybe small but as long as you can keep 3 rw's around you still get 3 mp's extra, for being in a mode quickly, that's nothing to frown at. With WKU (or of course WHKtK) you might even be able to get 6 rw's out while moving around.

edit: uhm correction, you only get mp's for tapped TRT so only if you have 9 out. still for movement it's a no brainer.
Last edited by Thorsten the Traveller on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by marcos » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:12 pm

thumbs up on changes to sites, though not sure about region movement, still what is the logic behind that?

thumbs up on partial MPs for less RWs

thumbs down on keeping the card tapped, it should untap during the untap phase so the opponent has chances to stop the big MPs award from this card x3

:)

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:50 pm

thing is Marcos, you need a mechanism whereby you can only move if you have 9 initially, yet you can still move if you lose one. For this we use a tap mechanism (because the 9 requirement can't be constant), yet if you want to keep moving next turn even if you stay 9 together, because you are rivered or whatever, then it's nice to be able to untap.

You think untapping makes it too strong or what? Untapping only costs you mp's so only gives you advantage in terms of turn movement (going from Bag End to barad-dur anyone?)

what's the problem with region movement? I need it otherwise I will have to use FM/LtDQ or I can only plan my 3 movements within the same haven reach, that's not fun and in fact stupid.
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marcos
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Post by marcos » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:20 pm

actually with the restriction to movement that joe suggested, a movement from bag end to barad-dur isn't possible since you can't move to gorgoroth :?

i don't have any problem with region movement, i'm just trying to figure out the pros and cons of it...
thing is Marcos, you need a mechanism whereby you can only move if you have 9 initially, yet you can still move if you lose one. For this we use a tap mechanism (because the 9 requirement can't be constant), yet if you want to keep moving next turn even if you stay 9 together, because you are rivered or whatever, then it's nice to be able to untap.
i understand, that is why i suggest that the card should untap during the untap phase :)

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:36 pm

yeah but currently worded, you may only tap the card if you have 9 in play, meaning that if you lose one then next turn you can't tap it anymore, so which mechanism would you chose then to award the mp's if not by tapping this card? I thought we agreed it should be possible to get some mp's even if one rw is gone?

true about B-dur, I guess there is no way to solve that puzzle elegantly without enabling cheez :cry:
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Post by marcos » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:02 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:yeah but currently worded, you may only tap the card if you have 9 in play, meaning that if you lose one then next turn you can't tap it anymore, so which mechanism would you chose then to award the mp's if not by tapping this card? I thought we agreed it should be possible to get some mp's even if one rw is gone?

true about B-dur, I guess there is no way to solve that puzzle elegantly without enabling cheez :cry:
i see, then we should keep with that wording

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Post by Leon » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:20 pm

Here is my proposal for the card, to make the text slightly simpler and hopefully to follow what we want:

At the start of each turn, you may place Black Rider or Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand and you may play any number of Ringwraith followers in a turn. Your Ringwraith's company has no size limit. If you are at a site not in a shadow-land or dark-domain, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for 3 or more ringwraiths, 2 for 6 or more and 4 for all nine ringwraiths. Cannot be duplicated by a given player. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item.

109 words including numbers

I really do not see the point of much extra movement. The ringwraiths could act more than once in the game, return to the haven and regroup. Also, I tried to keep it as simple as possible while most ideas are still in there.

ideas:

1 award points if away from the safest areas. the exact amount can be 1.2.4, 1.2.5 or 1.3.6 for 3.6.9 RW depending on playtesting.

2 no trouble with tapping, inverting, multiple copies of this card etc

3 put down a Black Rider at the start of each turn, so you can move with 3 RW during your second turn and get all the nine by turn 4 or 5.

Now the only problem left for me is that I do not even have 9 copies of Black Horse, let alone enough for a few virtuals.
Last edited by Leon on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:41 pm

One other question!!!
Why don't we allow to play all nine without the influence required, which can only be provided by the black horses....
So the Black Rider card would also allow you to move all nine!...
IS THAT TOO STRONG?
or was it just never though of?

Another insight I just had:

Why not make it the way, that you need 1 of these cards for each 3 ringwraiths you have.... like...if you have 3 out, you can get MP from max one instance of this card. 6 MP for six wraiths and the second instance of we ride together and all 9 MP for having all 9 out and a third card.


So if your ringwraith gets killed ...you still get the points from the other two cards... and only loose 3 MPs...!

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Post by Frodo » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:10 am

Moving to B-Dur to store anything is still possible, but on your last TRT movement you'd have to go to a darkhaven not in or adj. to Gorgoroth, then Forced March to B-dur.

I see the "moving again" as central to the card, both thematically and game-wise. You may be building up RWs until your last or next to last turn, and so get to move very far can really help. But also the "last ride of the RWs" gives the card its heart and soul tome... you are getting points for riding out, exploring, and surviving. Anything less than this has been done before.

Frodo

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Post by marcos » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:18 pm

Frodo wrote:Moving to B-Dur to store anything is still possible, but on your last TRT movement you'd have to go to a darkhaven not in or adj. to Gorgoroth, then Forced March to B-dur.

I see the "moving again" as central to the card, both thematically and game-wise. You may be building up RWs until your last or next to last turn, and so get to move very far can really help. But also the "last ride of the RWs" gives the card its heart and soul tome... you are getting points for riding out, exploring, and surviving. Anything less than this has been done before.

Frodo
i agree with Joe but i think that a move to b-dur should be possible and MPs should still remain 3-6-9

best!
Marcos

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:58 pm

I agree the hunting aspect is cool, but I must also say that Leon's simpler version has appeal. Hmmm....well how badly is the hunting aspect needed in terms of gameplay. Usually if you position yourself right, you can get to your opponent in one m/h phase, you have plenty of turns at least to move to the correct haven.
So maybe we should give up on theme for the sake of theme here?
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