(V suggestion) Avatarless Balrog

marcos
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(V suggestion) Avatarless Balrog

Post by marcos » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:36 pm

Orders from the great demon/ Obey him or die/ any other card that fits with this theme - V

Permanent-Event
Command. Playable during organization phase on a Leader with mind 7 or more if you don't controll The Balrog. Return all other command cards on target leader to your hand when this card is played. This character requires no Influence to be controlled. +3 to general Influence. Once during each of your organization phases, target leader may tap to: bring a resource or character from your sideboard into your play deck and shuffle or give +1/+1 prowess/body to all characters in his company. Cannot be duplicated as a virtual card by a given player. Discard this card and target leader if you ever controll The Balrog.

EDIT: the second ability (+1/+1) may be changed, i just posted the first thing that came to my mind

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:26 pm

This has good potential. Particularly, I like that the Avatarless Balrog will need to be active in order to work.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:36 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:This has good potential. Particularly, I like that the Avatarless Balrog will need to be active in order to work.
what do you suggest?

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:38 pm

Nothing to suggest; I'm not a Balrog expert. Just saying I like it but can't really give any good feedback.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:40 pm

okay then, what do you mean with "active" ?

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Nerdmeetsyou
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Post by Nerdmeetsyou » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:26 pm

I believe he means Walking around from site to site... instead of squating at sites....

but I also have no expirience with playing the balrog at all... so I will not meddle in your avatarless balrog stuff!

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:32 pm

I suppose the new avatar would be worth no MP's? And if he's killed that's -5 mp? maybe the word avatar should be on it somewhere.

His abilities as an avatar are rather basic, so this is more ment as a back-up than as a strategy or theme in it's own right, that's a bit of a pitty. Of course the basic avatar skills are called for, and we could build on him with other cards, but I just thought I should mention that.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:45 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:I suppose the new avatar would be worth no MP's? And if he's killed that's -5 mp? maybe the word avatar should be on it somewhere.

His abilities as an avatar are rather basic, so this is more ment as a back-up than as a strategy or theme in it's own right, that's a bit of a pitty. Of course the basic avatar skills are called for, and we could build on him with other cards, but I just thought I should mention that.
well worth no MPs was not the idea, it's a pitty that you loose 3 MPs from a buthra that is already in play, so to say. If you think that it is way too much advantage, then the general influence booster can be modified, or even removed... But i think that a gay hog with great shadow is 100 times better than freeing some GI like this card does, i mean, he has 6 DI and gay shadow offers an extra 6 GI for 12 points of influence to spare with cheeze character points... :(

About the -5 if he is killed, that is nice, i like it and i didn't realized about that, as well as the word "avatar" on the card text.

I think this card is meant to be the start of a strategy and more theme cards will go with it (cards the same type as cloaked by darkness/ roam the waste/ heart of dark fire/ etc), mainly with the purpose of not cramping the card too much...

Yeah, their abilities are rather basic, i decided to suggest +1/+1, but that alternative ability should be worked more to make it inovative... Sugestions are welcome :)

Maybe this card (or the consequent theme cards) can be linked with baduila in some way...

and btw, even though im a cheeze player i like ben's idea of making the card work if the new avatar is active, i just don't know how to put that in the card...

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:23 am

Well since you'd get 3 mp's for free basically for an 8 or 9 minder, that's equivalent also to 8 or 9 GI, so you'd suggest, with Umagaur as a max., that the new avatar would have in fact 33 total influence (20+8+5) plus 3 vs. Balrog specific....yes gay Shadow might still be the king of cheeze in this respect, because you have 32 influence and Umagaur (whoever came up with that idea?), but first of all you should not take an awful card as basis for new ideas, and second your avatar is made crappier with GS, and third it is still highly unfair to other alignments, most natably poor ringwraiths.

agreed on the active part, obviously. Maybe we could give him an built in Unexpected Party for orcs, that would compensate for having less influence, and the maggots are no use if you stay put at a haven...hmmm yes but they are nice when squatting for fires...well a heedless would tap out all of them probably.
I like the idea of other big minders stepping up, not just Baduila, in medm player guide the flavour text of Umi/Bumi makes it pretty clear they have their mind set on one day ruling their own little empire.

maybe we can give this leader +1 DI for each region he is away from Moria, or each step away from Under-gates. 8)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

marcos
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Post by marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:44 am

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Well since you'd get 3 mp's for free basically for an 8 or 9 minder, that's equivalent also to 8 or 9 GI, so you'd suggest, with Umagaur as a max., that the new avatar would have in fact 33 total influence (20+8+5) plus 3 vs. Balrog specific....yes gay Shadow might still be the king of cheeze in this respect, because you have 32 influence and Umagaur (whoever came up with that idea?), but first of all you should not take an awful card as basis for new ideas, and second your avatar is made crappier with GS, and third it is still highly unfair to other alignments, most natably poor ringwraiths.

agreed on the active part, obviously. Maybe we could give him an built in Unexpected Party for orcs, that would compensate for having less influence, and the maggots are no use if you stay put at a haven...hmmm yes but they are nice when squatting for fires...well a heedless would tap out all of them probably.
I like the idea of other big minders stepping up, not just Baduila, in medm player guide the flavour text of Umi/Bumi makes it pretty clear they have their mind set on one day ruling their own little empire.

maybe we can give this leader +1 DI for each region he is away from Moria, or each step away from Under-gates. 8)
Excellent ideas 8)

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Post by marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:03 am

New shot:

Permanent-Event
Balrog Specific. Command. Playable during organization phase on a Leader with mind 7 or more if you don't controll The Balrog. Return all other command cards on target leader to your hand. This character requires no Influence to be controlled. +1 GI for each region away from Moria or each site away from Under gates the leader is. Target leader may tap during organization phase to bring a resource or character from your sideboard into play deck and shuffle. One and two minded orcs in the same company requires no influence to be controlled. There is no limit to the size of the company. Cannot be duplicated as a virtual card by a given player. Discard this card and target leader if you ever controll The Balrog. -5 MPs if target leader leaves play.
CP: 4

Changed the general influence boost for +1 GI for each region or site away from hog havens. And added the clause about unexpected orc party instead the +1/+1. Added some CPs reflecting that the character may feel to powerful and deny hog's orders, as well as giving a counterpart to the card.

I think normal minions won't be annoyed by this new type of "avatar". They still has some nice unleashed and resources that a hog can't play, for example faithless stewards, and a normal hog has his own demon fana stuff wich are very powerful at the moment without any more help. And vs hero there is always sauron/ lidless eye... BTW, added an important thing: this card should be hog specific...

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Post by Leon » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:39 am

Please compare this card to the other minions and not the balrog with his insane amount of GI. RW + Bade to Rule is 25 GI, Sauron 30. If you make this character not requiring influence it is similar to 27 or 28 GI, which is more than enough. An additional influence bonus is absolutely unnecessary.

Compared to ringwraiths or even the Balrog himself it is way easier to move across the earth. To support the active part a possibility is: Each turn, one character may be brought into play under GI at Moria or the Under-Gates, even if this leader is not at that site. That way your avatar is not required to stay there.

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Post by marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:04 am

Compared to ringwraiths or even the Balrog himself it is way easier to move across the earth. To support the active part a possibility is: Each turn, one character may be brought into play under GI at Moria or the Under-Gates, even if this leader is not at that site. That way your avatar is not required to stay there.
this character isn't an avatar on the strict sense of the word. So that part is included from scratch. Maybe, we could make this leader require half his mind (rounded up) to be controlled and use DI instead of GI like thorsten suggested in the first time, maybe that way it won't be that overpowered?

Permanent-Event
Balrog Specific. Command. Playable during organization phase on a Leader with mind 7 or more if you don't controll The Balrog. Return all other command cards on target leader to your hand. This character's mind is halved (rounded up) for purposes of controlling him. +1 DI for each region away from Moria or each site away from Under gates the leader is. Target leader may tap during organization phase to bring a resource or character from your sideboard into play deck and shuffle. One and two minded orcs in the same company requires no influence to be controlled. There is no limit to the size of the company. Cannot be duplicated as a virtual card by a given player. Discard this card and target leader if you ever controll The Balrog. -5 MPs if target leader leaves play.
CP: 4

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Thorsten the Traveller
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Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:55 am

If character would be worth no mp's like a normal avatar, then his influence wouldn't be over the top, because Leon, you still only have 20 GI, just mp-wise it's like 28. So my solution would be to make this guy an avatar somehow, meaning: no mind (or 10 in case it's needed), no mp's, -5 mp when dead, tap to take resource, opponent may tap to halve hl for creature, avatar specific hazards. In fact there are so many things that come with an avatar that could be either benificial or negative. Or you suppose it would be fair to have opponent try influence your new avatar away with his own copy?

and it seems interesting mechanism to me to have his DI fluctuate according to his distance to Moria, you'd want to stay as far away as possible, doing other things, imagine him moving around Drowning Deeps, or trying to establish a realm in Gundabad. Ideally it should be that his influence would fluctuate according to his distance to where the Balrog is, so Balrog can come himself and castigate his renegate Troll! 8)
but that would be difficult, playwise, your DI would drop 5 points in a turn and there's nothing to do about it. Still, if you have a built in Party for maggots, that's not too bad.

The non unique orcsesses can be played in underdeeps at any site, so there is no point bringing them in at Moria under GI, and furthermore that thematically makes no sense since Balrog reigns there.
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Post by marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:29 pm

If character would be worth no mp's like a normal avatar, then his influence wouldn't be over the top, because Leon, you still only have 20 GI, just mp-wise it's like 28. So my solution would be to make this guy an avatar somehow, meaning: no mind (or 10 in case it's needed), no mp's, -5 mp when dead, tap to take resource, opponent may tap to halve hl for creature, avatar specific hazards. In fact there are so many things that come with an avatar that could be either benificial or negative. Or you suppose it would be fair to have opponent try influence your new avatar away with his own copy?

I based myself on vastor's "Warlord", and i would really love to keep the card like that or at least very similar:
Warlord wrote:Permanent-Event +3 DI
Playable on a character with a starting mind 7 or greater and if he has By the Ringwraith’s Word on him besides the Mouth. The minion becomes a Warlord. Tap this card during your organization phase to put one card from your sideboard into your play deck or 3 cards from your sideboard to the discard pile. Does not need GI to be controlled. Cannot be controlled by any character. This card can be played in the starting company in lieu of a starting item. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
What is wrong on this V card making target character not requiring influence to be controlled or even halving their mind, in difference to Vastor's warlord? In wich, except that i am missing something, target minion still gives MPs, not requires influence to be controlled and has +3 DI and can even be a starting card...

new shot:
Permanent-Event
Balrog Specific. Command. Playable during organization phase on a Leader with mind 7 or more if you don't controll The Balrog. Target character becomes your avatar. Return all other command cards on target leader to your hand. This character's mind is halved (rounded up) for purposes of controlling him. +1 DI for each region away from Moria or each site away from Under gates the leader is. One and two minded orcs in the same company requires no influence to be controlled. There is no limit to the number of such characters that can be played with the company on a giiven turn nor to the size of the company. Cannot be duplicated as a virtual card by a given player.
CP: 4


I think that including the phrase "Target character becomes your avatar" includes:
-5 MPs if leaves play, tap to bring resource or character from SB, opponent can halve hazard limit, such character cannot be influenced away, etc. so i skipped all those technisism to save some space. I also skipped the part of "discard this card if you control the balrog". It is supposed that if you already have an avatar, you are not going to play another ;)
Is it ok, or i am missing something?

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