Black Rider, They Ride Together and Heralded Lord V
Perhaps adding a limitation such as this can help:
Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. [57 words]
In this way, The Witch-King and Khamul can still play followers that require no direct influence and any Ringwraith can play Uvatha. Other than that, you are required to keep the company small and somewhat risky. The Ringwraiths have between 5 and 9 direct influence, so any of them can play one follower.
If you can think of a better limitation, please step forward.
Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. [57 words]
In this way, The Witch-King and Khamul can still play followers that require no direct influence and any Ringwraith can play Uvatha. Other than that, you are required to keep the company small and somewhat risky. The Ringwraiths have between 5 and 9 direct influence, so any of them can play one follower.
If you can think of a better limitation, please step forward.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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@black rider: it's good, but I still don't see why you should be able to play 'any number in one turn.' Since this will now become the standard way of movement for active RW, I suppose, (quick setup and no discard of mode/followers), the big company thing better belongs on TRT. I don't even think it's ok you can play a RW follower in addition to 1 char rule, they're just powerful characters like any other, you don't play 3 Lieutenants per turn costing 1 influence either.
then, I don't think you need this fraction thing, because if you state 'at least half', any number of horses must automatically be higher than the fraction since you can't play half a horse. If I have 3 rw's I need at least 1,5 horse, meaning I need 2...
I would keep the order of the reserving horses part and the moving part the way it was before, for clarity.
@TRT, I would state non haven site not in Gorgoroth or adjacent, otherwise you get people moving from Gundabad to Carn Dum and back.
@heralded lord: seems good, but to get it clear, does this mean each RW follwer is in heralded lord and gets +3 DI? that is quite big. Don't know from top of head what this might lead to, but there must be like3 or4 rw's that have 9 DI free then....I would suggest like normal HL or FR to give the +3 only to your rw so he can use it to control the followers.
then, I don't think you need this fraction thing, because if you state 'at least half', any number of horses must automatically be higher than the fraction since you can't play half a horse. If I have 3 rw's I need at least 1,5 horse, meaning I need 2...
I would keep the order of the reserving horses part and the moving part the way it was before, for clarity.
@TRT, I would state non haven site not in Gorgoroth or adjacent, otherwise you get people moving from Gundabad to Carn Dum and back.
@heralded lord: seems good, but to get it clear, does this mean each RW follwer is in heralded lord and gets +3 DI? that is quite big. Don't know from top of head what this might lead to, but there must be like3 or4 rw's that have 9 DI free then....I would suggest like normal HL or FR to give the +3 only to your rw so he can use it to control the followers.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Is it? then the Fell Rider has confused me, I must admit I played it like 1 time or so in 10 years of meccg, which says enough about it's current use 
(threats, anyone?)
Just looked up the spoiler, it seems that only akhorahil, adunaphel and witch-king can profit big time from being a follower in heralded lord mode (at 9 di), while of course hoarmurath/indur at 7 DI are nothing to sniff at. Less prowess yes, but still as good as a wizard or aragorn. hmm, this might proof yet tricky to balance.
Maybe something like a fellowship clause: discard this card if a RW joins or leaves the company?
(threats, anyone?)Just looked up the spoiler, it seems that only akhorahil, adunaphel and witch-king can profit big time from being a follower in heralded lord mode (at 9 di), while of course hoarmurath/indur at 7 DI are nothing to sniff at. Less prowess yes, but still as good as a wizard or aragorn. hmm, this might proof yet tricky to balance.
Maybe something like a fellowship clause: discard this card if a RW joins or leaves the company?
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
I tried to include all comments and changed the number of Ringwraiths playable in one turn to 3, so the original They Ride Together is not obsolete either. Also, I just realized that Heralded Lord Virtual does not allow the play of a follower and I am wondering if it should be included in the card. With the last sentence, any Ringwraith may play Uvatha as follower and one other Ringwraith at his homesite or with They Ride Together, WK or Khamuls ability.
Black Rider Virtual
Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after opponent plays a ring), you may place a Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand. If at least half the number of Ringwraiths in your Ringwraiths company control a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [81 words]
They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. During your organization phase you may play up to three Ringwraiths if they are otherwise playable. If at least six Ringwraiths in your Ringwraiths company control a Black Horse, the company may move using region movement. Additionally, you may tap this card at the end of this company’s movement/hazard phase to move again to a non-darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; this card gives 1 marshalling point for every three Ringwraiths in the company when tapped. You may choose to leave this card tapped during untap phase. [93 words]
Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. Any Ringwraith follower may be played at his home site. [67 words]
Black Rider Virtual
Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after opponent plays a ring), you may place a Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand. If at least half the number of Ringwraiths in your Ringwraiths company control a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [81 words]
They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. During your organization phase you may play up to three Ringwraiths if they are otherwise playable. If at least six Ringwraiths in your Ringwraiths company control a Black Horse, the company may move using region movement. Additionally, you may tap this card at the end of this company’s movement/hazard phase to move again to a non-darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; this card gives 1 marshalling point for every three Ringwraiths in the company when tapped. You may choose to leave this card tapped during untap phase. [93 words]
Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. Any Ringwraith follower may be played at his home site. [67 words]
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Thorsten the Traveller
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- Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
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I seriously like them, splitting up BR and TRT is probably a good idea, we had to come to terms with the complexity of TRT.
HL though I think is too good, I think only your RW should get the +3, the followers are followers of the lord, but indeed if this reduction is of great importance I don't know, at least you'll need a card in support to play dragon factions I suppose. But the main issue of course is the movement, hence my proposal for a discard clause.
btw. why mention RW followers can be played at their home site, am I missing something again? Or you mean, any follower may be played at your RW's home site?
HL though I think is too good, I think only your RW should get the +3, the followers are followers of the lord, but indeed if this reduction is of great importance I don't know, at least you'll need a card in support to play dragon factions I suppose. But the main issue of course is the movement, hence my proposal for a discard clause.
btw. why mention RW followers can be played at their home site, am I missing something again? Or you mean, any follower may be played at your RW's home site?
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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maybe just discard the mode card... but not the followers... whenever at haven???
I wasnt sure if any such clause would be needed. Otherwise any RW can play Uvatha and the WK and Khamul can play others. Better leave out the last sentence and then I do not think any more limitations are necessary before playtesting.
Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. [57 words]
Heralded Lord Virtual
Permanent event. Place this card with your Ringwraith if he is in play. Your Ringwraith's company is in Heralded Lord mode and may move using starter movement. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company while not at a darkhaven. Ringwraith followers in this company that normally require 1 direct influence cost 5 direct influence each instead. [57 words]
Leon, thanks for taking the lead on making improvements on TRT. As with Dwar Unleashed and his new factions, a split-up of the card’s abilities seems to be the right approach. This might require some juggling of V Set #1 current card contents to make the TRT strategy viable in V Set #1, but more on that later.
I want to repeat how important I believe it is for the original MECCG cards to not become obsolete. But my definition of obsolete is pretty specific and simply means, “to allow no other use for the card in any imaginable situation.” Following the Magic the Gathering analogy: it is true that creatures were significantly weaker at first, but once using creatures became viable in Magic, the designers continued to inflate creature abilities until old creatures would constantly became obsolete (every few years I notice you can get more for 3 colorless and 1 green than you could in the days of the War Mammoth). We have more complex card abilities than Magic, and therefore there is no reason to design new cards that do not allow for some rare use of the original… save feeling too lazy about it.
Okay, time to be an English professor:
Black Rider edits:
1) say “or immediately after a ring is played”
2) say “These Black Horses may be played as if in hand.”
3) say “If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company…”
Note that for number 3 above, all of your RWs will be in the same company, so we don’t have to mention “in your RW’s company”.
They Ride Together
1) say “During your organization phase you may play up to two additional Ringwraiths.”
But I actually don’t see why we don’t allow the play of as many RW followers as you like, as per the current TRT (V). Do people think the limitation is needed? Keep in mind that the original They Ride Together (not-Virtual) is still usable because it allows the play of followers at ANY site the main RW is at.
2) change “If at least six Ringwraiths in your Ringwraith’s company…” by cutting “in your RW’s company” and adding “six of your RW”
3) say “You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase. If tapped, this card is worth 1 MP for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play.”
4) use the clause “tap this card when the company moves to a non-haven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; it may move again…” to allow final Barad-dur movement, rather than the other way around which is how it is now.
Also, instead of saying, “If at least six Ringwraiths in your Ringwraiths company control a Black Horse, the company may move using region movement. Additionally, you may tap this card at the end of this company’s movement/hazard phase to move again to a non-darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth”, why not make the region movement ability work only if you are using TRT? Thematically, they are “spurring the horses on”, and it makes TRT slightly easier to read. It would thus read:
“If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, you may tap this card when the company moves to a site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; it may move again using region movement.”
The only issue with the above is that it requires the removal of the “non-haven” site limitation. Although, I don’t think that’s a bad idea.
If we use all of my suggestions above, the new cards would look like:
Black Rider Virtual
Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. These Black Horses may be played as if in hand. If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-Darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [72 words; 9 cut from previous]
They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. During your organization phase you may play up to two additional Ringwraiths. If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, you may tap this card when the company moves to a site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; it may move again using region movement. You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase. If tapped, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [79 words; 14 cut from previous]
Summary of remaining ability issues not addressed in above versions:
PLAY OF UNLIMITED FOLLOWERS
Should we allow play of as many RW followers as you like, as per the current TRT (V), or not?
KEEPING TRT TAPPED
I still think the RW player should NOT have an option to keep his TRT tapped for three reasons:
1) my old reasoning that it’s not really needed
2) now you only need SIX RWs to activate the card
3) This also prevents another slightly cheesy or at least unthematic element: you could tap your TRTs early, and on your last turn or turns, once your opponent has had time to gather some creatures to fight you with, simply squat at the site you are at and not move… and you will still get all your points from TRT!
4) It simplifies the card even more.
So instead, that whole second to last line “You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase” would be eliminated, and the card would always untap during a player’s turn.
CARDS TO REMOVE FROM VIRTUAL SET #1
TRT replaces TRT, of curse. But we simply must have Black Rider (V) in Set 1. These are the only cards I think people don’t use on a large basis, starting with the “least least-used: Fair-travels in Free Domains, Ent-draughts, Anduin River, Shadowfax. Therefore, I think we should cut FTFD for Black Rider.
If you guys think Heralded Lord is absolutely important to a RW strat and should be in VSet 1 as well, then we’ll have to cut another card from that list, but I think the cuts become more painful…
That’s it!
--Frodo
I want to repeat how important I believe it is for the original MECCG cards to not become obsolete. But my definition of obsolete is pretty specific and simply means, “to allow no other use for the card in any imaginable situation.” Following the Magic the Gathering analogy: it is true that creatures were significantly weaker at first, but once using creatures became viable in Magic, the designers continued to inflate creature abilities until old creatures would constantly became obsolete (every few years I notice you can get more for 3 colorless and 1 green than you could in the days of the War Mammoth). We have more complex card abilities than Magic, and therefore there is no reason to design new cards that do not allow for some rare use of the original… save feeling too lazy about it.
Okay, time to be an English professor:
Black Rider edits:
1) say “or immediately after a ring is played”
2) say “These Black Horses may be played as if in hand.”
3) say “If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company…”
Note that for number 3 above, all of your RWs will be in the same company, so we don’t have to mention “in your RW’s company”.
They Ride Together
1) say “During your organization phase you may play up to two additional Ringwraiths.”
But I actually don’t see why we don’t allow the play of as many RW followers as you like, as per the current TRT (V). Do people think the limitation is needed? Keep in mind that the original They Ride Together (not-Virtual) is still usable because it allows the play of followers at ANY site the main RW is at.
2) change “If at least six Ringwraiths in your Ringwraith’s company…” by cutting “in your RW’s company” and adding “six of your RW”
3) say “You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase. If tapped, this card is worth 1 MP for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play.”
4) use the clause “tap this card when the company moves to a non-haven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; it may move again…” to allow final Barad-dur movement, rather than the other way around which is how it is now.
Also, instead of saying, “If at least six Ringwraiths in your Ringwraiths company control a Black Horse, the company may move using region movement. Additionally, you may tap this card at the end of this company’s movement/hazard phase to move again to a non-darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth”, why not make the region movement ability work only if you are using TRT? Thematically, they are “spurring the horses on”, and it makes TRT slightly easier to read. It would thus read:
“If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, you may tap this card when the company moves to a site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; it may move again using region movement.”
The only issue with the above is that it requires the removal of the “non-haven” site limitation. Although, I don’t think that’s a bad idea.
If we use all of my suggestions above, the new cards would look like:
Black Rider Virtual
Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. These Black Horses may be played as if in hand. If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-Darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [72 words; 9 cut from previous]
They Ride Together Virtual (new version)
Permanent event. During your organization phase you may play up to two additional Ringwraiths. If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, you may tap this card when the company moves to a site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; it may move again using region movement. You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase. If tapped, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [79 words; 14 cut from previous]
Summary of remaining ability issues not addressed in above versions:
PLAY OF UNLIMITED FOLLOWERS
Should we allow play of as many RW followers as you like, as per the current TRT (V), or not?
KEEPING TRT TAPPED
I still think the RW player should NOT have an option to keep his TRT tapped for three reasons:
1) my old reasoning that it’s not really needed
2) now you only need SIX RWs to activate the card
3) This also prevents another slightly cheesy or at least unthematic element: you could tap your TRTs early, and on your last turn or turns, once your opponent has had time to gather some creatures to fight you with, simply squat at the site you are at and not move… and you will still get all your points from TRT!
4) It simplifies the card even more.
So instead, that whole second to last line “You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase” would be eliminated, and the card would always untap during a player’s turn.
CARDS TO REMOVE FROM VIRTUAL SET #1
TRT replaces TRT, of curse. But we simply must have Black Rider (V) in Set 1. These are the only cards I think people don’t use on a large basis, starting with the “least least-used: Fair-travels in Free Domains, Ent-draughts, Anduin River, Shadowfax. Therefore, I think we should cut FTFD for Black Rider.
If you guys think Heralded Lord is absolutely important to a RW strat and should be in VSet 1 as well, then we’ll have to cut another card from that list, but I think the cuts become more painful…
That’s it!
--Frodo
i agree with Joe's suggestions and i think that if cards can't be cutted then including them in any further sets will be ok. If people thinks that such cards SHOULD be in set 1 and can't for any reason be included in other sets, then we can make such changes
oppinions?
oppinions?
Thank you for the extensive response, Frodo.
to the play of unlimited followers:
I do not really care either way, but would like to put it in some way that does not make the original TRT obsolete. Limiting TRT to havens for this option (the unlimited RW followers) should be ok, but that is not in there at the moment. The original TRT is also still useful if you would want a Heralded Lord with followers.
To the tapping clause:
I do not think this is needed and support your idea.
I wanted to allow region movement for the first of the movements of a 6 RW group as well.
I think putting this card in set 1 and leaving a Heralded Lord for later sets is ok. Heralded Lord V probably needs more playtesting than TRT V and Black Rider V, so it would be convenient for that reason as well.
to the play of unlimited followers:
I do not really care either way, but would like to put it in some way that does not make the original TRT obsolete. Limiting TRT to havens for this option (the unlimited RW followers) should be ok, but that is not in there at the moment. The original TRT is also still useful if you would want a Heralded Lord with followers.
To the tapping clause:
I do not think this is needed and support your idea.
I wanted to allow region movement for the first of the movements of a 6 RW group as well.
I think putting this card in set 1 and leaving a Heralded Lord for later sets is ok. Heralded Lord V probably needs more playtesting than TRT V and Black Rider V, so it would be convenient for that reason as well.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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if we cut a card it definitly should be free travel in free domains or ent draughts!
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Thorsten the Traveller
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- Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
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@BR, can/should Black Horse V be reserved on this? I'd say no.
@TRT, Goldur and Carn Dum are not in/adjacent Gorgoroth....
@TRT, Goldur and Carn Dum are not in/adjacent Gorgoroth....
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.