Virtual Card Discussion and Playtesting

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Jambo
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Virtual Card Discussion and Playtesting

Post by Jambo » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:30 pm

Created a discussion and feedback thread because I could find the referenced one anywhere.

I've downloaded the VC xml sheets and intend to design a new deck soon. However, I have a few questions:

Adunaphel Unleashed: She must be tapped to play this card on her, right?

Riven Gate: Is the playing of the extra "free" characters still governed by the normal limitations for playing a character - e.g. no more than 20 GI?

Dwar Unleashed: Is the maximum number of regions Dwar can move using this card still limited to 4? Also would consecutive m/h phases obtained through Use Your Legs and/or Forced March continue to add to the prowess of the wolf allies? I presumed yes, since the bonus can reach up to +7.

Fate of the Ithil Stone: If you fail the >14 check when tapped is the wizard still considered to have a mind of 10 for counting towards the highest mind character to face the cc?

I Know Much About You: Does the agent have to be revealed from the player's hand or can it be revealed from the table? Also, would this work for Baduila's secondary effect? I presume not since it doesn't require tapping of the agent.

Grond and Alliance of Free Peoples: I'm curious, has anyone tried either of these out yet? No matter how I try to look at them I can't seem to fathom out how these aren't going to be majorly game breaking? All one seemingly needs to do is create a faction heavy deck, play this card and go romping on your opponent's factions. Once one battle ensues, the loser immediately loses all factions even if the body checks aren't successful! On top of this I can't see how the losing player will ever manage to keep another faction in play for longer than one turn. Won't the winner's large stack of factions just descend on the new faction? Presumably the winner will also then double in faction points?

E.g. Hero player has raised Rangers of the North and Blue Mountain Dwarves = 6 MPs. Minion player Orcs of Moria and Snaga-hai = 4 MPs. Hero player plays this card during Org phase and combines both factions in Eriador. Minion player combines both his factions. Now presumably the minion player might just continue to try to keep >4 regions away, but they won't be able to do this for ever. When they wend up battline it's 12 + roll vs 8 + roll. Say loser is minion. Any subsequent faction raised by the minion player will have to face 12 + roll.

Suggestion:
Factions only get removed through a failed body check?
For combat purposes, don't double the faction MPs?

Cheers

Jambo
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 3:01 pm

Post by Jambo » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:35 pm

Waiting Shadow: It says "Choose Wizard if present". Does this also refer to a RW if played on a RW company? If so, what happens if there's more than one RW present?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:54 am

Let's give this a shot!
Adunaphel Unleashed: She must be tapped to play this card on her, right?
Adunaphel Unleashed: Yes, being tapped is an active condition of playing this card.
Riven Gate: Is the playing of the extra "free" characters still governed by the normal limitations for playing a character - e.g. no more than 20 GI?
Yes, Riven Gate only gives you the ability to play "additional" characters per turn, but the 20 GI rule is still in effect. Good for an army of scrubs, really.
Dwar Unleashed: Is the maximum number of regions Dwar can move using this card still limited to 4? Also would consecutive m/h phases obtained through Use Your Legs and/or Forced March continue to add to the prowess of the wolf allies? I presumed yes, since the bonus can reach up to +7.
There is no maximum to the number of regions Dwar can move. Since the card is defining the number of regions, I'm not sure if we need to have a clause here saying "no maximum." At any rate, let's play it as if there is none.

As far as the second question, hmm. I know that DU would work the same as Alone and Unadvised. If I had two m/h phases and you played an Alone on me during the second, would the Alone count all the regions I moved during the first phase? I doubt it. That would mean A Short Rest would become more and more ineffective each multiple m/h phase one took. So, unless Zara rules differently, I would say you are not considered to still be moving through the regions in the previous m/h phase.

The reason for the +7 maximum is twofold; first, the opponent could technically have 6 wolf allies in play; second, you could discard this card for the prowess bonus, then play another one from your hand, and discard it again!
Fate of the Ithil Stone: If you fail the >14 check when tapped is the wizard still considered to have a mind of 10 for counting towards the highest mind character to face the cc?
Ah, nice catch! It should indeed include the Wizard. I guess it really needs that clause written again.
I Know Much About You: Does the agent have to be revealed from the player's hand or can it be revealed from the table? Also, would this work for Baduila's secondary effect? I presume not since it doesn't require tapping of the agent.
This should be from hand. I need to double-check whether "reveal" always means from hand. It doesn't work for Baduila's secondary effect.

As far as Grond and Alliance of Free Peoples, we'll have to wait and see how games go. My saving thought right now as to why it may not be broken is that the minion player, in the example you gave, could have his factions flee in opposite directions, thus forcing the hero player to combine his forces and engage one unit for an easy defeat, or chase the factions separately.
Waiting Shadow: It says "Choose Wizard if present". Does this also refer to a RW if played on a RW company? If so, what happens if there's more than one RW present?
At present this card only refers to Wizards, which also includes Fallen-Wizards, of course.

Thanks for creating the discusion thread!

-Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:29 pm

Half an Eye Open
Playable on a site that contains a hoard or on a Dragon at home manifestation. When this card is played, take up to three cards from your discard pile and place them facedown with this card. You may play short or permanent event hazards (except At Homes and Parsimony of Seclusion) placed with this card that mention a unique dragon by name or the phrase “dragon manifestation” in their game text or title as if they were in your hand. All hazards targeting unique dragon creatures do not count against the hazard limit. Prowess of Age can only be played to give a prowess bonus. Discard this card if there are no hazards with it.

I'm after a couple of quick clarifications of this card:

1. The phrase "Dragon Manifestation" is used as a playability condition however the only cards I could find that use this exact phase are Parsimony of Seclusion, From the Pits of Angband and Prowess of Age. PoS isn't allowed and the part of PoA that uses this phrase isn't allowed! Can I take it this is meant to be "Dragon" instead? Otherwise, presumably all the other interesting cards like Dragon's Curse, Memories Stolen, Dragon's Desolation, Rumour of Wealth, aren't included.

2. "Playable on a site that contains a hoard..." If the site is removed from play I take it this card remains, since this card is only discarded if there are no cards underneath it?

Cheers

Frodo
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Location: NYC, NY

Post by Frodo » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:21 pm

Yikes, nice catch Jamie. I think we accidentally combined an older text version with a newer one, and we messed up the meaning.

Here is what the card *should* say, as of now, and will be rewritten to say in the next playtest version. Changes are in capital letters:

Half an Eye Open (V)
Playable on a site that contains a hoard or on a Dragon at home manifestation. When this card is played, take up to three cards from your discard pile and place them facedown with this card. You may play short or permanent event hazards (except At Homes and Parsimony of Seclusion) placed with this card that mention a NAMED DRAGON OR THE WORD "DRAGON" in their game text or title as if they were in your hand. All hazards targeting unique dragon creatures do not count against the hazard limit. Prowess of Age can only be played to give a prowess bonus. Discard this card if there are no hazards with it OR IF THE CARD IT IS PLAYED ON IS REMOVED FROM PLAY.


This nicely opens up the number of hazards that can played. Don't forget about Known to an Ounce!

-Frodo
Last edited by Frodo on Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:37 pm

Regarding Half and Eye Open:

Can I just ask what's the point of playing this card on a site in play that contains a hoard, if the card and the hazards beneath it will simply be discarded when the company at that site moves?

Also, what happens if this card is played on a Dragon at Home Manifestation and the DaH is subsequently discarded or killed? Presumably one could play it on your own as well as your opponent's Dragon at Home Manifestations?

If these are unwanted effects, maybe the card should read:

"Playable if a site that contains a hoard or a Dragon at Home Manifestation is in play."
Last edited by Jambo on Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jambo
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 3:01 pm

Post by Jambo » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:51 pm

Armory:
When Armory comes into play, you must place between two and four minor items (except Cram) from your sideboard under Armory. These minor items are playable at tapped and untapped Free-holds and Border-holds (no more than two minor items per site). If there are no items under Armory, you gain 1 marshalling point.

Can these minor items be unique, e.g. Sting, and/or can they be hoard? If so, presumably they're also playable at the free-hold and border-holds?

Anduin:
Unique. Playable at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase after cards are drawn if you moved through at least two of the following regions: Rohan, Anorien, Ithilien, Dagorlad, Lebennin, Harondor. Bring a resource or character from your discard pile to your playdeck (reshuffle) for each of the above regions moved through. Hazard creatures may be keyed to Coastal Seas against this company for remainder of phase. Remove this card from the game.

Regarding the last part, does it mean that creatures typically playable can be played keyed to a coastal sea region instead? E.g. Assassin, Thief, or whatever, keyed to coastal sea?

Or does it mean creatures that are normally keyable to coastal seas can be keyed to a company moving using this card? Also "may be keyed" implies it's optional. Is that correct?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:46 pm

Regarding Half and Eye Open:

Can I just ask what's the point of playing this card on a site in play that contains a hoard, if the card and the hazards beneath it will simply be discarded when the company at that site moves?
If there are no At-homes in play, you decide whether or not the particular combo of Dragon hazards you have would be successful against your opponent's current journey into Dragon country, and still play Half an Eye open (V) on his site, and smash him to smitheerens with serpents! Next turn if he leaves, you still get another m/h phase to use the card before the site goes.
Also, what happens if this card is played on a Dragon at Home Manifestation and the DaH is subsequently discarded or killed? Presumably one could play it on your own as well as your opponent's Dragon at Home Manifestations?
If the DaH is discarded or killed the card goes away. I guess I should add this to the card text (note: text above now reflects this change). Yes, you can play it on your opponent's Dragon at homes, since there is no global rule I can think of that prohibits players targetting each other's hazards with their own hazards.

-Frodo

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:09 pm

Joe - few more clarifications:

Regarding the "fair travel" cards, Dark-domains, Free-domains and Shadow-lands:

*One's a long event (DD), the other two (FD and SL) are short events - is that intentional?

*Only one of the two short events is playable during the org phase. Is this intentional?

Cheers

Frodo
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Location: NYC, NY

Post by Frodo » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:23 pm

Regarding Armory:
Can these minor items be unique, e.g. Sting, and/or can they be hoard? If so, presumably they're also playable at the free-hold and border-holds?
It seems that when cards refer to the word "items", they mean *all* items, including unique, non-unique, hoard and non-hoard. Thus, Forge-master and Earth-eater could target hoard items (but not non-uniques, since the card says so) and War-Forges could not target either uniques or hoard because the card says specificially so. I will double-check with Mark. But at any rate, that is indeed the intent of the card (to allow everything, playable at the free and border-holds). If we decide allowing hoard items is too strong, we can change it.

Anduin River says in one part of the card that:
"Hazard creatures may be keyed to Coastal Seas against this company for remainder of phase." and you asked:
Regarding the last part, does it mean that creatures typically playable can be played keyed to a coastal sea region instead? E.g. Assassin, Thief, or whatever, keyed to coastal sea? Or does it mean creatures that are normally keyable to coastal seas can be keyed to a company moving using this card? Also "may be keyed" implies it's optional. Is that correct?
Nice catch; this is a little confusing. It means creatures normally playable to coastal seas can be played there. It is not optional. This line should be rewritten so I am including the card's new text below. The new text is written similar to the text on the balrog site "The Drowning-deeps", which is a good model.

Anduin River (V)
Unique. Playable at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase after cards are drawn if you moved through at least two of the following regions: Rohan, Anorien, Ithilien, Dagorlad, Lebennin, Harondor. Bring a resource or character from your discard pile to your playdeck (reshuffle) for each of the above regions moved through. Creatures keyed to Coastal Seas may be keyed to any of the above regions for remainder of this phase. Remove this card from the game.


-Frodo


I feel like Mark!

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:10 pm

Hi Joe,

Sacrifice of Form: Does it give the 3 MPs immediately or only when the card is placed with the returning wizard?

Wondrous Maps: Should this card say "playable on a company"? Otherwise as a permanent event this card might effect both you and your opponent's companies by default?

Vanishment: Presmuably you only make the cc if you win the duel? Also, do you get the 1 MP even if your Wizard is the avatar that's discarded? Just a suggestion but you might want to have a stage point limit on the ability to target an opponent's FW? Otherwise, with just a few spells this card could conceivably just shut down every FW deck, since they tend to rely so heavily on their FW specifc stage resources. Maybe FW specific stage resources shouldn't be discarded?

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:30 pm

Regarding the Fair Travel cards:

Yes, that was intentional.

-Frodo

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:52 pm

Sacrifice of Form: Does it give the 3 MPs immediately or only when the card is placed with the returning wizard?
Immediately. By the way, you can cut lines like "This card gives X Marshalling points..." and the symbol [3MP] from the text boxes when you make the Image-cards. Simply put a 3 in the corner, no parentheses.
Wondrous Maps: Should this card say "playable on a company"? Otherwise as a permanent event this card might effect both you and your opponent's companies by default?
It says "your" so it refers only to the card's owner. We didn't want it playable on a company because this way it can apply to multiple companies of your own.
Vanishment: Presmuably you only make the cc if you win the duel? Also, do you get the 1 MP even if your Wizard is the avatar that's discarded? Just a suggestion but you might want to have a stage point limit on the ability to target an opponent's FW? Otherwise, with just a few spells this card could conceivably just shut down every FW deck, since they tend to rely so heavily on their FW specifc stage resources. Maybe FW specific stage resources shouldn't be discarded?
Yes, you only make the CC if you win, because the card's effects are resolved in the order written. Hmm, you were only supposed to get the 1 MP if you win... maybe the best way to rewrite this is to add "Playable on a wizard..." to the beginning. Yes, let's do this.

Vanishment (V) new text (changes are in Capitals):
Spell. PLAYABLE ON A WIZARD during site phase at same site as opponent’s Fallen-wizard. or same free-hold
as a Ringwraith. Your Wizard may tap to initiate
a magic duel. You and opponent roll. Add 2 if a
sage. Also add 2 for each spell or magic card
discarded from hand. Player with lowest roll
must discard his Wizard (both if tie). Your
Wizard makes a corruption check at –3. Cannot
be duplicated. Gives 1 MP (3 if Fallen Radagast
or the Witch-King is discarded). [1(3)MP]


By the way, if I made a rewrite of a card within this thread because of your suggestions, you can incorporate that more up-to-date text in the image-cards.

As far as shutting down FW decks, right now I don't think the card would really shut them down, because you can only do use this card successfully *once* (cannot be duplicated) and FW decks usually only have 1-3 really important "foo-specific" cards. These might not be in play yet, or one can try to replay them. It's possible to hold off the opponent from spellcasting you as well. I might be wrong, but let's see what happens (you're right that stage points in this case would be a good limitation).

--Frodo

Ringbearer
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Post by Ringbearer » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:21 pm

A small correction: since Vanishment can also be played on a Ringwraith, I would add a minor change, so it says: "... must discard his AVATAR..."
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
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Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower

Frodo
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Post by Frodo » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:46 am

Good catch! Man, so many little tiny mistakes...

But actually, since the card as worded could even be played on a Ringwraith *follower*, let's revise the sentence with this one instead:

Vanishment (V):
add: "Player with lowest roll must discard his wizard or Ringwraith"

--Frodo

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