Virtual Card Discussion and Playtesting

Jambo
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Hi Joe -

Now done up to Fallen Wizard stuff (just minion to go!).

Shameful Deeds: This is played as if a hazard host so presumably can be targeted by MT and VoM? IF so, is this card discarded? Or is the net effect just that the Wizard is freed but this card remains?

Open to the Summons: Is this card placed with Baduila?

Cheers
Frodo
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Open to the Summons: Is this card placed with Baduila?
Yeah, let's make it that way. So if the opponent plays Call of Home on Baduila, you're really screwed.

So there should be a line added after the last line of
Open to the Summons (V) which reads:
"Place this card on Baduila if he is in play."

I'm still working out the Shameful Deeds one... that one is really complicated...!

Frodo
Frodo
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Shameful Deeds: This is played as if a hazard host so presumably can be targeted by MT and VoM? IF so, is this card discarded? Or is the net effect just that the Wizard is freed but this card remains?
I just spent TWO HOURS redoing this crazy card. Okay, hopefully the new text below makes more sense.

Shameful Deeds (V) new text:
Fallen-wizard only during site phase at same site as opponent’s Wizard if you have more than 6 SP. Your Fallen-wizard may tap to initiate a magic duel. You and opponent roll. Add 2 if a Sage. Also add 2 for each spell or
magic card discarded from hand. Player with lowest roll must place his Wizard prisoner at your copy of the nearest Wizardhaven or hero Isengard even if in play (highest roller chooses). Your Fallen-wizard’s company is overt, and attacks against it from other companies cannot be cancelled. This card follows prisoner rules and rescue rules as if it were a hazard host, except that it can never be discarded. The imprisoned Wizard may also be freed if his player reveals and discards resources normally worth 9 MP or more from hand simultaneously. Cannot be duplicated.


In answer to your questions, although the card follows prisoner and rescue rules as if it were a hazard host, it can't be targetted by Marvels, because it isn't actually a hazard. (Kind of like Twilight, which can't be smoked though it can be played as a resource.) It also can't be discarded, anyway, so that wouldn't help you. The fact that it can't be discarded means no Wizard will ever be imprisoned more than once per game.

Some other Notes on this card's playability:
--The Fallen-wizard playing this card can target an opponent’s Wizard or Fallen-wizard, in accordance with White Hand Rules which say that any card referring to “Wizards” apply to your Fallen-wizard too.
--Since the card follows rescue rules, the rescuing company must always use a card from their site deck to free them.
--If a player loses the duel, and needs to go send a company to rescue the Wizard, they might get lucky since there’s no auto-attacks at hero and FW sites Rhosgobel and White Towers and FW Isengard. Still, if they’re a hero player, the overt FW company can stick around at the site and attack them! If they’re an FW player, their Wizard’s company is overt, and the opponent can move his company to the imprisoned Wizard’s and attack him after he’s freed.
--It’s possible to get taken prisoner at a “made” Wizardhaven like Hidden Haven-Weathertop.

Frodo
Last edited by Frodo on Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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Just a clarification:

There's no rescue attack associated with the card. Does this mean that all one has to do to rescue the Imprisoned Wizard is go to the site?
Frodo
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Yes, all one has to do is go to the site and enter it and tap a character to rescue the wizard. There's a chance there will be autos at the site, though.

So it's not *that* difficult to free the wizard, which compensates for the horrible effect of losing him temporarily. (You still need to send a company, though!)

Frodo
Jambo
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That's a better version of Shameful Deeds. I can only think of one tricky situation and that is what happens if the hero player's Isengard site is in his discard pile and he wins the duel? Should the site be taken from the discard pile and placed in a tapped form with the Fallen-wizard?

Never Refuse: What would happen if a Fallen-wizard with this card is travelling in a company with others and Beorning Skin-changers is played. If there isn't an untapped warrior would all be returned barring the Fallen-wizard? I presume so, since the card just specifies himself as being affected.
Frodo
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I can only think of one tricky situation and that is what happens if the hero player's Isengard site is in his discard pile and he wins the duel?
Actually, the "your copy" refers to the player of Shameful Deeds. I did this mostly because of the situation you just mentioned! There will always be a site for the FW prisoner to go to because FW havens are non-unique.

Another correction: please add the word "hero" before "Isengard," so that it reads "hero Isengard." (I corrected this in the previous post too.) This makes it clearer that the high roller could choose this version of the site.

Frodo
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Never Refuse: What would happen if a Fallen-wizard with this card is travelling in a company with others and Beorning Skin-changers is played. If there isn't an untapped warrior would all be returned barring the Fallen-wizard? I presume so, since the card just specifies himself as being affected.
Ah, nice catch again! This is a weird loophole; I don't know if there's a precedent for splitting up a company in this kind of indirect way.

I'm pretty sure Mark meant the card to protect his "company." So, let's rewrite this one too to say:

Never Refuse (V) addition:
"His company cannot be returned to its site of origin"


That makes it pretty strong, of course; but how many *travelling* Fallen-wizard decks have you ever seen? Might as well give them a reason to do so!!

Frodo
Jambo
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Now for some game related card feedback-

Fate of the Ithil Stone:
Managed to do this fairly easily with Thrain and an Aligned Palantir of Orthanc. The roll required was only a 4, which did seem a little on the easy side. Possibly making the roll required one or two higher might have been more fitting? Making the roll harder could be coupled with the card being played on a specific character instead of globally, with a successful roll also lowering the corruption points associated with the Palantir and making it immune to the effects of Bane... That would simulate the Palantir being wrested away from Sauron's grip, but it would also allow a Sauron player to do something about the hand-size reduction by killing the affected character...

Joe was actually playing a minion Sauron deck and didn't seem to have much in the way of corruption and didn't appear to have Bane of the Ithil Stone either, so I probably got off lightly. Still, there was a certain element of sweet justice seeing a Sauron or Lidless Eye player having his hand-size reduced for the latter quarter of the game! :)

Half and Eye Open:
Excellent. Managed to play Daelomin with Frenzy of Madness against Joe's minion company at a shadow-hold. Despite Joe cancelling it, I managed to play Dragon's Terror in response, tapping 3 of his characters! Not bad for a card I've never seen played before. I also like the way this ties in with Dragon at Home Manifestations. I used Daelomin and Agburanar at Home. Joe was using a Gondor burning deck based around the new movement allowances of Umbarean Corsairs, so I'm surprised I even managed one of these plays.

Umbarean Corsairs:
Very cool card! Maybe the only surprising factor is the resounding +5 to recruit this faction for Dunedain. Kind of makes it an auto recruit but considering the deck's probably based on this card for its functionality maybe that's not too bad...

Waiting Shadow:
Again, great card, and just what this game needs in my opinion.

Alliance of the Free People/Grond:
Now these are probably my least favourite of the V cards. The body checks and battling side of them are fine, but it's the auto-disperse feature that I really don't like. It's just too powerful and I can see many games ending sourly with someone doubling faction points as a result.

First of the Order:
This card alone really makes Saruman a superb wizard and that in itself is excellent. However, it does render one of Gandalf's few redeeming features (+1 to cc) rather inferior in comparison. Unless the set can can come up with a really good Gandalf card, I'm fairly sure this poor wizard will suffer even more now Saruman's got a well deserved boost. One question regarding this card - can it be used by Fallen Saruman?

That's about it for the moment, but I really did enjoy the game using the VCs! The options available to active RWs also look really appealing now.
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Bandobras Took
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Using Grond/Alliance, factions become associated with regions. How does an agent attempt to influence a faction that has moved using one of these cards?
Frodo
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Jamie's suggestion for FATEotis is really creative and interesting... let's keep this in mind for the future.

First of the Order is only supposed to help other characters in Saruman's company, not Saruman himself. At least, I think that's what we meant. It makes more sense in terms of balance, anyway. Do we agree?
Using Grond/Alliance, factions become associated with regions. How does an agent attempt to influence a faction that has moved using one of these cards?
Agents would still make attempts against factions "playable at the agent's site", since that seems to be how these cards work, even for factions that are playable in multiple areas. In other words, if I'm running my Rangers of the North all over the map, agents could still influence them at Bree. Presumably, they hear news of what's happening at Bree, and are thus influenced. Same for character influence attempts on these factions.

Frodo
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Bandobras Took
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After watching a game between Zarathustra and Sauron, I'm forced to agree with Jambo -- Grond/Alliance are a little too strong.

A few suggestions:

Instead of dispersed, one faction on the losing side is wounded. A wounded faction gives half MPs (round up) and its body is lowered by 2. If the faction is already wounded, they are instead eliminated.

Also, Army of the Dead in the books was a one-shot affair -- they wiped out the Corsairs and their oath was done. I would change Army of the Dead to automatically eliminate another faction in the same region. Army of the Dead is placed in your Marshalling Point pile and may not move again.
zarathustra
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I like took's suggestions. Not sure whether round up or down is right, though.... I guess 1-MP factions become 0 if you round down, so up it must be!
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Bandobras Took
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Tribute Garnered causes a faction to give an extra MP; does this affect Grond/Alliance MP totals? Before or after the doubling?
Frodo
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Thanks to Ben and Jon for their comments.

Ben made a suggestion on the boards that was partly what Jon suggested. I liked it, and am taking most of it for a rewrite of the card below. Please weigh in:

ALLIANCE/GROND
[all text is the same up to here:]
[...]
You and opponent roll, doubling your faction MPs
battling and adding this value to your rolls (side with Army of
the Dead automatically wins; return Army to MP pile permanently). One losing faction is inverted as wounded (winner's choice). A wounded faction gives half MPs (round up). If the faction is already wounded, it is eliminated.

Nice and simple?

--joe
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