I forgot about Jambo's Waiting Shadow. I DO like this card a lot; better than all the others, I think.
Okay, if people feel like Marcos that we can go with what he just listed, and save the other considerations for set 2, that's fine with me.
--Frodo
[Virtual Suggestion] Darkness Under Tree and awakened plants
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Okay, my view, and excuses for the long post
The problem with AP strategy is this, in order of importance:
1 Effectiveness of play: they're low on strikes.
2 Mayor need of recycling: there are not enough creatures available. Also so difficult to play multiple in one turn, so affects 1.
3 Play frequency: only keyable to regions and very specific sites. This also has impact on 1 and 2.
The all round solution is obvious:
A make them tougher to kill
B recycle them more
C make them better/more keyable
A you can do by enhancing prowess, enhancing body, or enhancing strikes. I think if you enhance prowess and strikes, we'll agree they become lethal, since keyability isn't actually that bad, it's just not good enough for the number of creatures and all round strategy (nothing against squatters mainly). Enhancing only prowess is only good for Huorn, we'll agree, and doesn't do much for 1. If you enhance body you improve also 2, but not 1. So enhancing strikes is the best way to go. If you enhance body and strikes they are very difficult to kill, which has an effect on B and possibly overpowers them.
B you can do with an AP specific recycler. However, if you make them indestructible for 1/A, then recycling will overpower them. Getting one to hand each turn, in combo with Outpost/Mouth/Uvatha, could be too much. If you make an enhancer that gets discarded after an AP is defeated, then it's another matter, but I haven't seen that proposal yet. Also if you have a non-unique recycler, you can use you Outpost/Mouth to recycle the recyclers if necessary. Besides, Radagast can be recycled with RbAH.
C is more difficult to justify themewise, the AP's are basically wilderness creatures and should be.
Now, generally speaking it might be true that having two moderate enhancers is preferable to having one bigger one, so you don't have to rely on one. Having two around simultaneously however will be overpowering, albeit they enhance different things, because AP's hardly need extra prowess, nor do you want to make them indestructable. So if going for two enhancers, one should be non-permanent and/or the other discardable after attack. But having a non-perm means needing more hazard limit, and so does a perm that is easily discarded.
Moreover, there are other ways to go available, e.g. including enhancers in the creature itself, or in Nature's Revenge V as suggested by Jambo.
Personally I would prefer the latter. Why? Because you need less card-slots, because you depend less on timing (using perms), it's versatile, and because the enhancers will probably not have multiplying effect, which for the bigger AP's could be overpowering, and as mentioned, you'll need less hazard limit, which improves your chances to play more AP's. Moreover since you can protect your enhancer with Wrath of the West/Blind to the West/Ire of the East/Many Sorrows in the South (and possibly In Darkness Bind Them V, which I very much like), there is less need to have multiple enhancers. Also, Jambo's proposal recycles and enhances, while it depends on the AP to be defeated, which hopefully won't happen much, which means you won't need 3 in the deck, and perhaps you'll even play it alongside the original.
Its power could be further increased by combining a Huorn V along the Chill Douser line: if Huorn is not cancelled, then all awakened plant attacks receive +1 strike for the rest of the turn. Then, with DuT V giving an extra attack, but no prowess, Old Man would become 2@13, twice. That''s pretty neat I'd say, for two wilderness, or in the line of Marcos' proposal for one wilderness (after any attack by Huorn). Huorn might get slaughtered, but you can get it back with a vengence by playing Nature's Revenge V, possibly the same turn! This would be much better than trying to keep Huorn around by boosting it doubly, so that the other AP's are lethal. Then with Radagast you can get your other AP's back to hand.
So in sum, I would prefer:
Darkness under Tree V: permanent event. All awakened plant attacks are doubled. (if this is too strong, then add the 'one character can tap to cancel clause').
Natures Revenge V [1 MP] - short event. Playable on an eliminated awakened plant hazard creature in your opponent's MP pile or a trophy. If Awakened Plant can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack receives +1 prowess and +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place this card in opponent's MP pile and he receives 1 MP
Huorn V: 1@10, body 4. If the attack of Huorn is not cancelled, all awakened plant attacks receive +1 strike for the rest the turn. (possibly add Marcos proposal 'Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company that has faced Huorn')
Radagast the Tamer V: creature/permanent event: (-) At the end of each turn you may take one awakened plant or animal creature from your discard pile to your hand.
nb. I see no connection between Rada and wolves (even though they're animals, but so are spiders). Also, if opponent plays Radagast, that's bad luck, but you should not be able to play huorns against Radagast anyway
Now that leaves Waiting Shadow. while I very much like Jambo's suggestion for Waiting Shadow, I think it's use will be small normally, since there are few sites the plants can be keyed to, and if opponent sees you're into plants, he will stay away from the forests. You could of course try Chance of Being Lost, also very thematic, but still...
If Huorn is improved along Marcos' line, there is no real need to improve keyability of the AP's. Nevertheless, AP's could have difficulty with squatters. I would therefore (obviously) recommend my proposal earlier done for DuT and make it:
Waiting Shadow V: permanent event. Any (ent or) awakened plant creature may be played keyed to a region or adjacent region (non Dark-Domain, non Coastal Sea) where an ent is present or an ent-faction was played, and may also be keyed to non-haven non-darkhold non-free hold sites in these regions. Awakened plant attacks at Shadow-holds are not detainment.
It's new, it's fun and thematic, it creates hazard-resource combined strategy, and it fills up the holes in the strategy. If your opponent is squatting, go and get him yourself! Another thing to consider: not everyone has 3 waiting shadows, waiting shadow itself is a pretty good card, and with this proposal you won't need 3 in the deck. Now all we need is an errata on Blackbole so it's available for minions also.
edited to make it more readable, and to change Nature's Revenge to 1 MP.
The problem with AP strategy is this, in order of importance:
1 Effectiveness of play: they're low on strikes.
2 Mayor need of recycling: there are not enough creatures available. Also so difficult to play multiple in one turn, so affects 1.
3 Play frequency: only keyable to regions and very specific sites. This also has impact on 1 and 2.
The all round solution is obvious:
A make them tougher to kill
B recycle them more
C make them better/more keyable
A you can do by enhancing prowess, enhancing body, or enhancing strikes. I think if you enhance prowess and strikes, we'll agree they become lethal, since keyability isn't actually that bad, it's just not good enough for the number of creatures and all round strategy (nothing against squatters mainly). Enhancing only prowess is only good for Huorn, we'll agree, and doesn't do much for 1. If you enhance body you improve also 2, but not 1. So enhancing strikes is the best way to go. If you enhance body and strikes they are very difficult to kill, which has an effect on B and possibly overpowers them.
B you can do with an AP specific recycler. However, if you make them indestructible for 1/A, then recycling will overpower them. Getting one to hand each turn, in combo with Outpost/Mouth/Uvatha, could be too much. If you make an enhancer that gets discarded after an AP is defeated, then it's another matter, but I haven't seen that proposal yet. Also if you have a non-unique recycler, you can use you Outpost/Mouth to recycle the recyclers if necessary. Besides, Radagast can be recycled with RbAH.
C is more difficult to justify themewise, the AP's are basically wilderness creatures and should be.
Now, generally speaking it might be true that having two moderate enhancers is preferable to having one bigger one, so you don't have to rely on one. Having two around simultaneously however will be overpowering, albeit they enhance different things, because AP's hardly need extra prowess, nor do you want to make them indestructable. So if going for two enhancers, one should be non-permanent and/or the other discardable after attack. But having a non-perm means needing more hazard limit, and so does a perm that is easily discarded.
Moreover, there are other ways to go available, e.g. including enhancers in the creature itself, or in Nature's Revenge V as suggested by Jambo.
Personally I would prefer the latter. Why? Because you need less card-slots, because you depend less on timing (using perms), it's versatile, and because the enhancers will probably not have multiplying effect, which for the bigger AP's could be overpowering, and as mentioned, you'll need less hazard limit, which improves your chances to play more AP's. Moreover since you can protect your enhancer with Wrath of the West/Blind to the West/Ire of the East/Many Sorrows in the South (and possibly In Darkness Bind Them V, which I very much like), there is less need to have multiple enhancers. Also, Jambo's proposal recycles and enhances, while it depends on the AP to be defeated, which hopefully won't happen much, which means you won't need 3 in the deck, and perhaps you'll even play it alongside the original.
Its power could be further increased by combining a Huorn V along the Chill Douser line: if Huorn is not cancelled, then all awakened plant attacks receive +1 strike for the rest of the turn. Then, with DuT V giving an extra attack, but no prowess, Old Man would become 2@13, twice. That''s pretty neat I'd say, for two wilderness, or in the line of Marcos' proposal for one wilderness (after any attack by Huorn). Huorn might get slaughtered, but you can get it back with a vengence by playing Nature's Revenge V, possibly the same turn! This would be much better than trying to keep Huorn around by boosting it doubly, so that the other AP's are lethal. Then with Radagast you can get your other AP's back to hand.
So in sum, I would prefer:
Darkness under Tree V: permanent event. All awakened plant attacks are doubled. (if this is too strong, then add the 'one character can tap to cancel clause').
Natures Revenge V [1 MP] - short event. Playable on an eliminated awakened plant hazard creature in your opponent's MP pile or a trophy. If Awakened Plant can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack receives +1 prowess and +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place this card in opponent's MP pile and he receives 1 MP
Huorn V: 1@10, body 4. If the attack of Huorn is not cancelled, all awakened plant attacks receive +1 strike for the rest the turn. (possibly add Marcos proposal 'Any awakened plant creature may be played on a company that has faced Huorn')
Radagast the Tamer V: creature/permanent event: (-) At the end of each turn you may take one awakened plant or animal creature from your discard pile to your hand.
nb. I see no connection between Rada and wolves (even though they're animals, but so are spiders). Also, if opponent plays Radagast, that's bad luck, but you should not be able to play huorns against Radagast anyway
Now that leaves Waiting Shadow. while I very much like Jambo's suggestion for Waiting Shadow, I think it's use will be small normally, since there are few sites the plants can be keyed to, and if opponent sees you're into plants, he will stay away from the forests. You could of course try Chance of Being Lost, also very thematic, but still...
If Huorn is improved along Marcos' line, there is no real need to improve keyability of the AP's. Nevertheless, AP's could have difficulty with squatters. I would therefore (obviously) recommend my proposal earlier done for DuT and make it:
Waiting Shadow V: permanent event. Any (ent or) awakened plant creature may be played keyed to a region or adjacent region (non Dark-Domain, non Coastal Sea) where an ent is present or an ent-faction was played, and may also be keyed to non-haven non-darkhold non-free hold sites in these regions. Awakened plant attacks at Shadow-holds are not detainment.
It's new, it's fun and thematic, it creates hazard-resource combined strategy, and it fills up the holes in the strategy. If your opponent is squatting, go and get him yourself! Another thing to consider: not everyone has 3 waiting shadows, waiting shadow itself is a pretty good card, and with this proposal you won't need 3 in the deck. Now all we need is an errata on Blackbole so it's available for minions also.
edited to make it more readable, and to change Nature's Revenge to 1 MP.
Last edited by Thorsten the Traveller on Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Another thing to concider: prowess of hazard creatures can be enhanced in other ways (Clouds, or reducing prowess of characters), but strikes hardly. One more reason why I don't feel the plants need more prowess.
In effect, all mentioned cards are rares, and not that easy/cheap ones either. Though the titles and art are highly appropiate, are there no other cards we could use? I mean, it's not like it's the cards themselves that need the improvement (except for Rada who pretty much stinks).
In effect, all mentioned cards are rares, and not that easy/cheap ones either. Though the titles and art are highly appropiate, are there no other cards we could use? I mean, it's not like it's the cards themselves that need the improvement (except for Rada who pretty much stinks).
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
clouds require doors of night and the best AP (ent in search of the entwives) is better without it...
i still can't understand the logic or theme behind this one:
i still can't understand the logic or theme behind this one:
Natures Revenge V [1 MP] - short event. Playable on an eliminated awakened plant hazard creature in your opponent's MP pile or a trophy. If Awakened Plant can attack, bring it into play as a creature that attacks immediately (not counting against the hazard limit). The attack receives +1 prowess and +1 strike and chooses defending characters. If the creature is defeated place this card in opponent's MP pile and he receives 1 MP
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Thorsten the Traveller
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True, but you get the point, right? (besides, with Huorn V the keyability is less important for EiSoEW)
Well I'd think it's pretty clear, you kill one Huorn, another comes to take Revenge with a vengance, what's not to understand? Seems thematic enough to me in the sense that nature always keeps growing and regenerating. Of course it's not referring to the ents attacking Isengard as the artwork shows, if that's what you mean, but it could be referring to the Trees attacking the Hague along the borders of Buckland...it refers to the title...
And the usefulness and rationale I have explained in post above as far as I'm concerned, either you prevent your huorns (mainly) from dying, boosting the others to supreme hights along the way, or you regenerate them, thus combining recycle and enhance ability. I'd choose the latter.
Well I'd think it's pretty clear, you kill one Huorn, another comes to take Revenge with a vengance, what's not to understand? Seems thematic enough to me in the sense that nature always keeps growing and regenerating. Of course it's not referring to the ents attacking Isengard as the artwork shows, if that's what you mean, but it could be referring to the Trees attacking the Hague along the borders of Buckland...it refers to the title...
And the usefulness and rationale I have explained in post above as far as I'm concerned, either you prevent your huorns (mainly) from dying, boosting the others to supreme hights along the way, or you regenerate them, thus combining recycle and enhance ability. I'd choose the latter.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Wow, Thorsten--I'm glad you're on this group! Great post.
I have to admit, I didn't see the thematic "regenerating" power of Nature's Revenge until Thorsten pointed to it. Now that I see it, I like very much what Thorsten is saying... why increase the power/keyability of Ents to make them more powerful, when we can instead use an (almost) completely new mechanic that is also thematic to make them strong: bringing them back to life from the MP pile?
I think we need to duke it out over the Ents a bit more in this forum. One thing to consider is the use of non-rares where possible, as Thorsten said. For example, couldn't we use any of the common/uncommon White Hand hazards that have a picture of Treebeard, etc. on them?
I also don't see the hazard-resource interplay allowed by keying an Ent to wherever an Ent ally is to be THAT powerful, so it would be nice if we could incorporate it. Perhaps, rather than making a brand-new card, it could simply be a line added onto one of the other enhancers (like the attack one? Or on Radagast himself??).
We don't need the IDEAL and FINAL solution, by the way. Just a good solution to playtest.
Frodo
I have to admit, I didn't see the thematic "regenerating" power of Nature's Revenge until Thorsten pointed to it. Now that I see it, I like very much what Thorsten is saying... why increase the power/keyability of Ents to make them more powerful, when we can instead use an (almost) completely new mechanic that is also thematic to make them strong: bringing them back to life from the MP pile?
I think we need to duke it out over the Ents a bit more in this forum. One thing to consider is the use of non-rares where possible, as Thorsten said. For example, couldn't we use any of the common/uncommon White Hand hazards that have a picture of Treebeard, etc. on them?
I also don't see the hazard-resource interplay allowed by keying an Ent to wherever an Ent ally is to be THAT powerful, so it would be nice if we could incorporate it. Perhaps, rather than making a brand-new card, it could simply be a line added onto one of the other enhancers (like the attack one? Or on Radagast himself??).
We don't need the IDEAL and FINAL solution, by the way. Just a good solution to playtest.
Frodo
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Thorsten the Traveller
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there's not much, no. Perhaps Flotsam and Jetsam could be used for Jambos proposal for Waiting Shadow, also a rare but worth a bit less.
I also thought of Choking Shadows, it has a kind of menacing plant feel, like Lost in Wilderness, but a better title. Das Pack vor der Tuer? also pretty rare...
No the resource-hazard interplay is definitely not too strong. It could be added to Darkness under Tree, but it is quite a long text, about 60 words. It would definitely not fit therefore on Radagast, space wise, and also he is unique. Not that that's such a problem, you need to get your ents first anyway, but it's a prime target for marvels/voices already.
I'm still thinking of a way of creating more plant-attacks, perhaps with a short event like dragon's terror, since there are only 6 cards against hero's that are non-detainment, and you should be able to play just one AP in a turn to some effect. Well, perhaps it's only fair that the plants should really rock only against overt minions...
I also thought of Choking Shadows, it has a kind of menacing plant feel, like Lost in Wilderness, but a better title. Das Pack vor der Tuer? also pretty rare...
No the resource-hazard interplay is definitely not too strong. It could be added to Darkness under Tree, but it is quite a long text, about 60 words. It would definitely not fit therefore on Radagast, space wise, and also he is unique. Not that that's such a problem, you need to get your ents first anyway, but it's a prime target for marvels/voices already.
I'm still thinking of a way of creating more plant-attacks, perhaps with a short event like dragon's terror, since there are only 6 cards against hero's that are non-detainment, and you should be able to play just one AP in a turn to some effect. Well, perhaps it's only fair that the plants should really rock only against overt minions...
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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How about giving Treebeard an ability to recycle Huorns, or Darkness under Tree? Or is that dreaming too much? 
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Yeah, Choking Shadows might be good alternative to the rare Waiting Shadow card.
Here's a variation I suggested for Marcos' Darkness Under Tree:
All Awakened Plant attacks receive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Additionally, all Awakened Plant attacks with no body have 6 body. Cannot be duplicated.
Upping the body should reduce the cull a little. I do think that a card that allows an Awakened Plant to attack from the discard pile or marshalling point pile is also a good idea. It might have to wait till the next set however, as we're short of spaces.
Here's a variation I suggested for Marcos' Darkness Under Tree:
All Awakened Plant attacks receive +2 prowess and 1 extra attack. A character can tap to cancel one of these attacks. Additionally, all Awakened Plant attacks with no body have 6 body. Cannot be duplicated.
Upping the body should reduce the cull a little. I do think that a card that allows an Awakened Plant to attack from the discard pile or marshalling point pile is also a good idea. It might have to wait till the next set however, as we're short of spaces.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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but why the extra prowess? You really think Old Man needs to be 2@15, or Ent 2@16? Just for 1 MP, and then 6 body? 9 out of 10 times the second attack would be tapped for anyway, except for Huorn. If you think Huorn is still too weak, even with the extra attack and the possible regenerating, then better improve his base prowess, because you're basically letting Ice-drakes attack everywhere now.
people here often have blood on their minds, you don't get smacked around enough during games then?
people here often have blood on their minds
, you don't get smacked around enough during games then?Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Ice drakes are 2 at 15 without any helper... This trees can be reduced to what they are with a single MT or VoM... Remember that also exists a card called forewarned is foreamed that is VERY used by hero players. And minions just haves tons of cancellers:Thorsten wrote:but why the extra prowess? You really think Old Man needs to be 2@15, or Ent 2@16? Just for 1 MP, and then 6 body? 9 out of 10 times the second attack would be tapped for anyway, except for Huorn. If you think Huorn is still too weak, even with the extra attack and the possible regenerating, then better improve his base prowess, because you're basically letting Ice-drakes attack everywhere now.
tormented earth
hoarmurath unleashed
Eye never sleeping
A nice place to hide
Diversion
ruse
orc stealth
without counting that there are also some other cards that helps to prevents hazard creatures to be played:
down down to goblin town/ secret passage
crack in the wall/ secret entrance
sneakin/ stealth
Hidden ways/ Ford
hide in dark places/ hiding
and i can name some other helpers that can get rid of them or make them very weaker:
deeper shadow/ many turns and doublings
spying out the land
old thush
liquid fire
sacrifice of form
do you want me to continue naming cards against that type of attacks?
i think the prowess booster is needed because it helps huorns not to suck, AND is just a basic modifier that a player wants to see in his hazard strategy... The idea behind a creature based deck is that when one attacks gets through all of that cards i named before, it causes big damage to the company, that's what we are trying to do here
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Thorsten the Traveller
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How can you justify they need prowess by pointing out all the ways their attacks can be avoided? If they voice Darkness, then the prowess booster doesn't do much either, does it?
Only a character with prowess 8 has an average chance to survive Old Man! And they can be keyed to single wilderness (with Huorn V)! And it has 6 body for only 1 MP! (which creature has that?) And if it should get defeated, regenerate it! What you are proposing is certainty of wounding if attack gets through, well they're no Dragons/ Nazgul/Elflord, even a Maya only has 13 prowess. Like I said, if you distinctly dislike Huorn, do something about him, don't make the others killing machines.....I rest my case.
Only a character with prowess 8 has an average chance to survive Old Man! And they can be keyed to single wilderness (with Huorn V)! And it has 6 body for only 1 MP! (which creature has that?) And if it should get defeated, regenerate it! What you are proposing is certainty of wounding if attack gets through, well they're no Dragons/ Nazgul/Elflord, even a Maya only has 13 prowess. Like I said, if you distinctly dislike Huorn, do something about him, don't make the others killing machines.....I rest my case.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
I justify it that way because, if all the attacks are going to be avoided, the only 1 attack that gets through needs to be effective, like elflords, orc lieutenants, nazgul, dragon or whatever...Thorsten wrote:How can you justify they need prowess by pointing out all the ways their attacks can be avoided? If they voice Darkness, then the prowess booster doesn't do much either, does it?
don't Elves upon Errantry sucks and elflords are killing machines? (boosted obviously) this is similar to huorn and old man willow/ ent in search of entwives