Ideas for [v] Rogrog and [v] Gothmog

[Jambo]

And then for Gothmog.

Gothmog V:
Creature/Permanent-event
Unique. Troll. One Strike. As a creature may also be keyed to blah.
As a permanent event, you may tap to take Reaching Shadow or In Darkness Bind Them from you discard pile or sideboard to hand. This card does not untap normally during your untap phase. You may use two against a company's hazard limit to untap this card. If In Darkness Bind Them is in play, Gothmog may attack from a permanent-event (counting against the hazard limit) following any Troll attack, or may be keyed to Anorien or Minas Tirith. If tapped Gothmog receives -1 prowess, -1 body. Discard after Gothmog attacks.

We'd need to check if this would also include the virtualised version of In Darkness Bind Them, since we wouldn't want that....

[Thorsten the Traveller]

But Firiel already is in Minas Tirith, it's her home!, so she can open the gates for the undead. Gothmog attacked outside Minas Tirith -if you think he got into the city then you're mislead by the film, well even there he stayed outside the gates and got butchered by Gimli and Aragorn, but at least the battle trolls got inside, though in the book no minions ever entered the city, thanks to Gandalf and the Rohirrim. So, that's the difference between keyed to region, and keyed to site.

Besides, you can hardly call his role in Return of the King that of an agent, like Ringbearer says, he was leading the troops of Mordor!

I would exclude him from free and even borderholds. He can legally move there, otherwise he can hardly move at all, but can't be revealed there. Text on Baugur says the same, and that's even a half-orc...but then, what is the point, since you can already tap any agent to play trolls at Ruins/lairs.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I like it Jambo! I was thinking about something along the line of Nazgul Abroad V to stack support cards on, but this is also neat, these region modifiers are almost never played (except maybe Angmar) while they are so cool.
On the other hand, they seems like cards destined to be virtualized, which you already mention for IDBT. We could make a clause for that, but it seems strange to give a boost to cards and then virtualize them.

how about adding, 'if played as a perm., unless tapped, this card can't be cancelled.' Though it's a creature and can thus be Uvatha-ed, it's also unique, and since you would probably play the region helpers to sideboard, it would be a waste if this card got discarded by marvels before you could use it, since much of your strategy may depend on it (unlike Shelob for example).

[Jambo]

Yes, shame that this idea for Gothmog and Rogrog crosses with a card already virtualised. Something to watch out for.

The theme behind these is what I really like. Rogrog is Lt of Angmar and Gothmog is Lt of Morgul, so the cards targeted befit the effects. I also wouldn't worry too much about MT and VoM. Once played, MT and VoM couldn't stop you from sideboarding these cards.

Maybe we leave Rogrog as the creature with this effect (Angmar Arises and Reaching Shadow), and instead focus Gothmog on something other than In Darkness Bind Them, which is an ultra crap card anyway? Maybe concentrating on the theme of Anorien, Minas Tirith, and surrounding areas, and/or something that can potentially further enhance the effects Reaching Shadow and Angmar Arises?

[Thorsten the Traveller]

but then you would have to add the 'this card becomes a short-event clause', right? I'm no master of timing rules, but if you play it and tap it straight away, somebody could marvel it in response, right? so your tapping would be moot and effect lost.

Yes In Darkness still sucks, either way, so maybe there's a better purpose for Gothmog. The theme behind Rogrog is nice, though the guy is completely ficticious Kuduk Lore as far as I know.

[Bandobras Took]

Gothmog as an agent would be completely incapable of using any stealthy agent cards, anyway. He'd be limited to Cunning Foes, Seek Without Success, and To Get You Away (have I missed one)?

I think I agree with "you can't reveal him at Free-Holds even if he can move there;" it makes sense. I wouldn't exclude him from being revealed at Border-Holds; a bunch of Woodmen aren't going to stop him.

On a side note, an agent at a Ruins & Lairs can only tap to make the same type of creature playable as the site's automatic attack. He must be at his Ruins & Lairs home site to make Trolls playable. Let's hear it for Wormtongue, Pon, and Om!

I'm not too hot on the idea of recycling Angmar Arises/In Darkness/Reaching Shadow. You're going to have three in your deck if you need one, and you're going to be discarding the ones that won't affect your opponent anyway. I'm not sure how much of a help it will be.

Here's another thought for Rogrog:
All ruins & lairs, shadow-holds, and dark-holds in Angmar, Gundabad, Forochel, Arthedain and Rhudaur gain an automatic attack of Trolls - 2 strikes at 10 prowess. Carn Dum also gains an automatic attack: Troll - 1 Strike at 13/8. If this attack is defeated, place this card in your opponent's marshalling point pile. These attacks are non-detainment against a Balrog player.

This would add troll auto-attacks to ruins & lairs, allowing one to tap an agent to make Trolls playable. Also, a Rogrog attack with Redoubled force would make Carn Dum a bit scarier to get into.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

A bit scarier indeed!
Life in Eriador has always been too easy anyway. Yes it sounds okay, not spectacular though, but nice.
But I don't understand the problem you pose for recycling the region-modifier. The cards come from sideboard, so you won't ever include 3 in deck, that's the point. Just hope Rogrog isn't your last card to draw, hehe. I think you can never rely on the region modifiers anyway, you'd always need morgul night and such. But that's already ok, just a Choking Shadows and a Umi/Bumi, and up up and away with the trolls!

[marcos]

i like all the suggestions so far

i think that Jambo's are the ones i like most, but i will limit it to:

Gothmog: non-virtual In darkness bind them
Rogrog: angmar arises

reaching shadow will fit perfectly for a "gorfaur the lame" but ICE didn't make any, what a shame

[Bandobras Took]

Just make "Pale Dream-Maker" a manifestation of Gorfaur the Lame and you're set.

[marcos]

lolz

however, have you thought about the interaction of gothmog and rogrog vs minion decks? how you will handle that lieutenants are one of the most often played characters?

Or are trolls intended to be vs hero?

[Bandobras Took]

Olog Warlords can't be played vs minion, anyway; I don't see Trolls as being an effective hazard strat vs. Minion.