Council of Elrond

OK, thread for helping ring play. I have taken the idea for Ringlore from the other thread.

Starting with Ringlore and Secrets of Their Forging:

Ringlore [v]
Permanent-event
MP: (1)
Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where infomation is playable. Tap the sage but not the site. If a Gold Ring in the same company as a sage with Ringlore is tested you may either add or subtract one to the roll (after the roll). A modified roll cannot be used to reveal The One Ring. If a ring is played following such a test, this card gives 1 MP. You may discard this card to target and cancel Rolled Down to the Sea played earlier in the same chain of effects.

Secrets of Their Forging[v]
Permanent-event
MP: (1)
Playable on a sage during the site phase at a site where infomation is playable. Tap the sage but not the site. If a Gold Ring in the same company as a sage with Secrets of Their Forging is tested you may either add or subtract one to the roll (after the roll). A modified roll cannot be used to reveal The One Ring. If a ring is played following such a test, this card gives 1 MP. You may discard this card to target and cancel Rolled Down to the Sea played earlier in the same chain of effects.

Question: Should these cards tap the site?

I guess this depends on the location of sites where information can be played for both minion and hero. I'd be inclined to say it shouldn't tap the site. Ideally you'd really be wanting to play 2 at one visit to such a site!

Thoughts on Fallen Saruman with Man of Skill and/or Saruman's Ring?

I like them both. This is precisely what a rings-for-points deck needs. Fallen Saruman will become the Ringmeister he's supposed to be, but I don't think he'll be overly strong; these cards do nothing to help his poor showing with factions and allies.

hey Jambo, you just beat me to it, I was just preparing such post today!

Regarding Ringlore/Secrets, we had already established these were great . I would add not duplicate on a given sage, or even on a given company.
The Rolled Down effect is ok but if you have multiples of these Rolled Down is made obsolete, I don't like that. Also, it's a cheap source of MP's.

Here's what I had prepared already, a bit broader analysis and some ideas. The ideas I will post also in another thread, this is more for the overview and the rings discussion.
Long post alert! and excuses for duplicating stuff, I had it already prepared some time ago...

analysis ring problem:
As we all know, card/turnmanagement isn't very good for rings, considering the item you get for it in terms of mp's, the tactical advantages of most rings, and mp/cp ratio.
The Ringlore V proposal already deals with some card/turnmanagement issues. It gives more chance of getting the ring you really want, so you can risk not using regular Ringlore/Secrets anymore and you save a turn. I guess it is more or less self-evident that the testing principle of rings itself should not be changed, because that would change the whole conception of playing rings that ICE has designed, which is part of the basics of the game. If someone can find a way to diversify this, let's hear it.
But for now let's list the other options.
Improve testing:
Grabb/reserve test cards. There are already cards that do that, yet specialist: grey hat, many coloured robes, wizard's staff, Saruman, Palantir of Annuminas. If another one is designed for more general use, the risk of making these obsolete is big.
Increase testing options: there are many ways to test a card, yet more could be designed, like perhaps a perm that tests lesser rings automatically.
Improve play of goldrings:
Grabb/reserve rings: idem.: Saruman's ring, dwarven ring (minion), whispers/rumours of rings.
Play ring item easier: there's thorough search, underdeeps, black rain, and certain site-untap cards. There's also leafbroach against testing. Play of rings doesn't seem problematic, at least not for heroes. For minions it's more difficult since some rings can be played only at specific sites.
Improve tactical advantages of rings: especially magic rings/wizard ring/lesser rings are pretty poor. This could be a good option, yet needs many V cards, since what would justifiy virtualising only one ring and leave others untouched? Also, the V version must bring some new resource strategy to the game, fill in some hiatus, or improve an old one. Minion rings could perhaps interact with certain hazards?
Improve the use of rings via other cards: cards could be designed that give you options when you have a ring in the company. For example: discard a ring as an offering attempt to gain benefits or stay out of trouble. Or other way around, if you have a ring, you become a magnet for trouble, which you can use to your advantage if you're looking for it (hunt scenario's).
Make ringplay worth more mp's: there's only 1 ring-connected mission (Into Smoking Cone). Rumor of the One is also there, but it's really pale. In stead of making rings worth more mp's, cards could be designed that align with ringplay. Ringlore V already gives 1 MP, a nice start. An easy idea would be a great army for rings (give mp's if you have a number of them in play), but I'd like to see a Gollum/Stinker connected ring mission.
Deal with ring-inherent corruption. There are many general cards/ways that deal with corruption of course. Nevertheless, ringplay can/should come with making alot of cc's, so perhaps a card dealing with ring specific corruption in a solid way could be designed. The minor/magic rings don't force cc's, maybe they should. There are many ringhazards imparting corruption, they are hardly played, because rings are hardly played. For the moment corruption is not central problem of rings, though it can scare some out of using the higher rings. For minions it's more a nuisance than a threat.

Apart from this all, some way must be found to deal with the ring nemesis Rolled Down and My Precious. This shouldn't be too difficult.

The Undeeps of Anduin V: permanent-event
Unique. Lost Knowledge. Playable on an untapped sage at a site in Anduin Vales or Brown Lands where gold rings are playable. Tap sage and the site (if untapped). Sage may tap to cancel the effect of Rolled down to the Sea before it resolves. Tap this card to take Gollum or Stinker to hand from playdeck (reshuffle). This card never untaps.
Alternatively, if My Precious is in play, a character in the company bearing a ring special item may tap at the beginning of the site phase and have My Precious attack the company. You must provide My Precious with a site from your location deck in the same or adjacent region to where character is. This card may be played as a hero resource.

The Undeeps of Anduin V: short-event
Tap a sage to cancel the effects of Rolled Down to the Sea before it resolves. Remove this card from play
Alternatively, discard a gold ring or ring special item from the company to cancel an attack that can be cancelled. If this cancels an attack by opponents company, place this card and the ring in opponent's MP pile.
This card may also be played as a hero resource.

Gollum's Fate V: permanent-event, mp (-) miscelaneous
Playable on the non-dwarf bearer of a ring special item during the site phase at an untapped Ruins or Shadowhold. Tap bearer and site to play Gollum with the bearer. At the end of your untap phase, make a roll and subtract the mp value of the ring(s) controller of Gollum bears. Each character tapping in support adds 2 to the roll. If the result is less than 5, discard Gollum and a ring his controller bears (opponent's choice). At the Council, you must make this roll twice. This card is worth the combined mp value of any rings controller bears. Discard this card and Gollum when controller bears no ring.
When this card comes into play, opponent may take a hazard-event that mentions 'ring' from sideboard or discard-pile to playdeck.

Forgotten Scrolls V: minor item
Lost Knowledge. May not be included in a starting company. Only playable at a Free-hold, Border-Hold or Ost-in-Edhil. Tap a sage in the company and discard this card to test a gold ring item: you may only play a lesser ring resulting the test.You may add or subtract 2 to any roll testing a ring in the company for the rest of turn, yet this may not result in playing The One Ring.

Wizard's Ring V: [+5 DI], 2 MP/CP.
Wizard Only. Playable at any haven or your wizard's home site. Tap Wizard's ring to cancel a detainment attack. Tap Wizard's Ring to increase your General Influence by 2 until the end of the turn. Wizard makes a cc. +5 direct influence when making an influence attempt against opponent's resource or character.

The Oracle's Ring V:
Spirit ring. playable only with a gold ring and after a test indicates a Spirit Ring. -2 to bearer's mind and +4 direct influence for a non orc/troll bearer against Men/Dunedain and Man/Dunadan factions. Tap bearer to make an influence attempt on a man/dunadan faction or character. You may take the corresponding faction or character to hand from sideboard or discard pile. Bearer makes a corruption check at -2.
Alternatively, tap bearer during the organisation phase to take a character to hand from sideboard or discard pile whose home site is bearer's current non haven non darkhold site. Bearer makes a cc at -2. All your man/dunadan factions and man/dunadan characters are worth one less MP (to a minimum of 1). Cannot be duplicated.

Lesser Ring V:
Playable only with a Gold Ring and after a test indicates a Lesser Ring. +2 influence against men and man-factions. You may play men characters during the organisation phase under direct influence at Freeholds/Border/Ruins. If bearer is your wizard, you may also play men characters under general influence with the company.

The Ring Leaves it's Mark V: permanent-event (3 MP)
Playable on a ringwraith company that is not in fell rider mode. If the company is at a site where a hero character bearing a ring special item is present, tap this card. If tapped, the company may travel with region movement (to a maximum of 5 regions) to a non-haven site where a hero character bearing a ring special item is present. Additionally, if moving in this fashion, you may play a ringwraith-follower from hand during the site phase (if your ringwraith has enough influence). This follower may be played in addition to the one character per turn. If tapped you may store this card at Barad-dur for 3 MP. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:Regarding Ringlore/Secrets, we had already established these were great . I would add not duplicate on a given sage, or even on a given company.
The Rolled Down effect is ok but if you have multiples of these Rolled Down is made obsolete, I don't like that. Also, it's a cheap source of MP's.

I like the idea of duplicating on a sage. The idea of a sage becoming more learned in ringlore as the game goes along, or delving further into the secrets of their forging, really appeals to me.

I also don't see Rolled becoming obsolete either. Rolled can still be used to combat these cards. These cards can potentially be worth MPs, 2 per card if Fallen Saruman plays Man of Skill, and Rolled can force a player to remove these if the player is unwilling to discard a ring.

Plus, maybe it will finally encourage players to think about other anti-ring hazards instead of Rolled? The Ring's Betrayal perhaps...

Definitely not, Rolled is a unique hazard, you can defend against it with rings in hand, and this is a non unique perm.resource. On top you want to give Saruman 6 mp at tapped sites. That just does not equate. You're seeing some elefant again where there's just a mouse, well, more like a scary pig then. Rolled Down has a raison d'etre, this just makes its reason discard 1 mp.
I proposed to have sage tap to negate Rolled Down, so hazard player can try to avoid it. Seems more fair to me.

I do not know why they ever came up with Rolled Down to the Sea. I have played rings for points decks with Rumours/Whispers of Rings. The increased direct influence allows for loads of characters to be played and this can work, if not for Rolled Down.

I agree Rolled Down is annoying, not just because of effect, but because there's little counter, and because frankly it's so easy, it's gratuite. And even worse, it not just has effect on a company with a ring, but on Ioreth at Rivendell as well. Thus it scares people away from ringplay, it's true.

On the other hand, rings can be good, if corruption is not played, there isn't much that stops them. I've won games against dunk decks frantically cycling this card, with a narrow escape. I tell you, then you're glad it exists.

If you look at it, there is only 1 Rolled Down, and you can have up to 9 rings in deck (for heroes). Of course having to keep a spare ring in hand is not nice, but opponent also has to keep recycling Rolled Down which costs him HL and cycle cards, and bans him from cycling other hazards that might be even more deadly. The really dreadful thing is Rolled/Mouth/Rolled/Uvatha/Mouth/Rolled in one turn, but that doesn't happen that often, you need 6 hl, you need Uvatha not on the table (you can defend that way), you need three uniques already in play, which means it probably wont happen early on in the game.

All in all I think that if you can stop 1 Rolled Down per turn with a card on the table (Ringlore, my proposal for Anduin Deeps, whatever), that would equal the balance already more than enough.

I kind of like the threat of Rolled Down. When it comes down to it, it's just a hazard like any other you have to prepare for. Muster Disperses/Call of Home can totally ruin your day as well if you're not prepared. Okay so ICE could have done a better job with Rolled (playable only on comp. with a ring, playable if Doors in play, whatever). But ostracising this hazard is nonsense.

I proposed a UEP about Rolled, but I might mention the idea here:

Ringlore: Rolled does not affect Hero Special Item Rings.
Secrets: Rolled does not affect Minion Special Item Rings.

This protectes rings that are already tested and found while not completely pulverizing Rolled, but letting it assume its proper place of hitting those that fail to test in a timely manner (e.g. Hero Dunk Decks).