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Spies Feared

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:55 pm
by Konrad Klar
I propose the following erratum:

Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a Shadow-hold if one of your scouts is there or on a Ruins & Lairs if one of your rangers is there. An automatic-attack is created at all versions of the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment). Additionally, automatic-attacks at all versions of the site are duplicated (including the new one) against all companies. Discard when site is discarded or returned to your location deck.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:42 am
by CDavis7M
Konrad Klar wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:55 pm I propose the following erratum:
Why? A card cannot fail by itself.

It says right there on the card: "against minion companies" -- which is your opponent's company.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:24 am
by Konrad Klar
Because my opponent's company does not face AAs of my site.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:22 pm
by CDavis7M
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:24 am Because my opponent's company does not face AAs of my site.
But this card does not create automatic attacks at your site...

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:42 am
by Konrad Klar
Let the original text of the card speak for itself.
Against the Shadow: Spies Feared
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R2

Resource: Permanent-event

Scout or Ranger only. Playable on a [-me_sh-] if one of your scouts is there or on a [-me_rl-] if one of your rangers is there. An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment). Additionally, automatic-attacks at the site are duplicated (including the new one) against all companies. Discard when site is discarded or returned to your location deck.

CRF wrote:A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on,
unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions
of affected sites.
So where AA are created, if at all?

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:35 am
by CDavis7M
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:42 am
CRF wrote:A permanent-event played on a site affects only the copy of the site it is played on,
unless otherwise specified. A permanent-event not played on a site affects all versions
of affected sites.
So where AA are created, if at all?
You got to be careful! That statement isn't just randomly plopped into the ruling file. That statement is in the "Rulings by Term" section under "Site." The 3rd sentence of the CRF specifically states "The Turn Sequence and Rulings by Term sections are specifically considered clarifications to the rules, and are therefore overridden by card text that specifically does so."

So when hero resource Spies Feared states "An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies" it means that the automatic attack is created at the version of the site that a minion company is at.

The effect is not on the site the card is played on, it is on the minion opponent's site. That's what the card specifies when it says "against minion companies."

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:56 am
by Konrad Klar
Sounds like: if according to some CRF entry, effect of given card would be useless*, then interpret the CRF entry as [SOMETHING YOU LIKES, SO THE EFFECT WOULD BE USABLE].

Viable alternative for straight errata for given card.

Indeed, due to:
MEWH wrote:Overt companies are not minion companies for the purposes of the detainment
attack guidelines in the MELE rules (p. 31). Overt companies are minion companies
for hazards that can only attack/effect minion companies (e.g., Sons of
Kings).
"An automatic-attack is created at the site against minion companies: Orcs-5 strikes with 8 prowess (detainment)." is useless even against overt companies under control of player who played Spies Feared.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:47 pm
by CDavis7M
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:56 am Sounds like: if according to some CRF entry, effect of given card would be useless*, then interpret the CRF entry as [SOMETHING YOU LIKES, SO THE EFFECT WOULD BE USABLE].
Sounds like: the CRF rulings by term are simply explanations given in response to specific questions that are not necessarily about Spies Feared and it's possible that some clarifications in the CRF do not apply to every situation. These aren't actual rules. They are clarifications. Many rulings in the CRF are misleading without knowing the original context of the question in which it was the response. I think you found most of them so thank you.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:51 am
by Konrad Klar
From the same set (MEAS) as Spies Feared.
Against the Shadow: No Strangers at this Time
Rarity: Common, Precise: C3

Resource: Permanent-event

Playable during the site phase on a [-me_fh-] or [-me_bh-] if you have played a faction there. This site is never discarded and never untaps for you. All detainment attacks at all versions of this site against minion companies instead attack normally. Against minion companies, each version of this site has an additional automatic-attack: an exact copy including all modifications of the attack listed on its card. Cannot be duplicated on a given site.
Underlines mine.

So the card is overly verbose? It will work in the same way without underlined text?

You do not need any errata. All you need is competent interpreter.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:53 pm
by CDavis7M
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:51 am From the same set (MEAS) as Spies Feared.
Against the Shadow: No Strangers at this Time
Rarity: Common, Precise: C3

Resource: Permanent-event

Playable during the site phase on a [-me_fh-] or [-me_bh-] if you have played a faction there. This site is never discarded and never untaps for you. All detainment attacks at all versions of this site against minion companies instead attack normally. Against minion companies, each version of this site has an additional automatic-attack: an exact copy including all modifications of the attack listed on its card. Cannot be duplicated on a given site.
Underlines mine.

So the card is overly verbose? It will work in the same way without underlined text?

You do not need any errata. All you need is competent interpreter.
This additional text is helpful. But if you didn't notice, there is no any room on Spies Feared to have this additional text. It already has text on the tiny bit of card next to the left of the artist. I wouldn't be surprised if additional words were on the card in play testing but were removed during editing. There are many cards where you can see that the text was shortened by the editor and can be confusing if not read carefully.

There are limitations in publishing. And surely there are longer cards with smaller text (Spider of Morlat, etc). But there is no issue with the card. And there is especially no contradiction with the CRF. The reader just needs to understand what the CRF is and what the purpose of the statement is. The rulings by term cannot override or contradict the rules or cards. They are supposed to be helpful. If they aren't helpful, go back to the actual rules.

Remember, it was written by ICE's customer service representative on the Internet, not by a Rules Judge. The job of customer service is to help the customers. Not create rules.

Re: Spies Feared

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:00 pm
by Konrad Klar
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:53 pm This additional text is helpful. But if you didn't notice, there is no any room on Spies Feared to have this additional text. It already has text on the tiny bit of card next to the left of the artist. I wouldn't be surprised if additional words were on the card in play testing but were removed during editing. There are many cards where you can see that the text was shortened by the editor and can be confusing if not read carefully.
My classmate during writing dictation wrote "h" instead "ch", because "ch" did not fit in a line.
So I can imagine.
Teacher was not in mood and did not buy this excuse.