Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 am
Against the Shadow: A Lie in Your Eyes
R2 Hazard: Short-event
Playable on an untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character. Your opponent may either: tap the character, tap an ally the character controls, or choose for you to make a roll (draw a #). If the result is greater than the character's mind plus 6, the character is discarded (along with all cards he controls). "'That won't do... What did you see, and what did you say?'"-LotRIII
Can you say that all that actions are declared?
THAT'S
BEEN
HEARD
BEFORE
TONIGHT:
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:28 pm
Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 04, 2018
I think that only
declared action caused by Riddling Talk is a dice roll.
What will happen (or will not happen) later depends on result of the roll, therefore any objects manipulated by eventual later actions are not targets. Creature card is not target, its attacks are not targets.
So answer is: yes, Riddling Talk may be played on character facing an automatic-attack.
A Lie in Your Eyes wrote:
Playable on an untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character. Your opponent may either: tap the character, tap an ally the character controls, or choose for you to make a roll (draw a #). If the result is greater than the character's mind plus 6, the character is discarded (along with all cards he controls). 'That won't do... What did you see, and what did you say?'-LotRIII
At declaration it is not know what an opponent will choose: tapping target character, tapping an ally the character controls (if available), or making a dice roll. Result of the roll in not known too.
Therefore it cannot be said that tapping the character, tapping an ally, dice roll, or discarding the character are declared actions.
And because target of an action must be specified at declaration of the action, the character is not target of action "tap", nor action "discard", an ally is not target of action "tap". Character is still target of A Lie in Your Eyes, just because the card is played on it, but not because any action, potentially created by A Lie in Your Eyes may operate on it. Only declared action of A Lie in Your Eyes is choice.
Here's the root of the misconception: "And because target of an action must be specified at declaration of the action, the character is not target of action "tap", nor action "discard", an ally is not target of action "tap"." This misconception is based on a misinterpretation of Annotation 8: "
An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved."
Just because the eventual action that will be chosen/happen is unknown does not mean that the target of an action is not a target. While the action may have other conditions that prevent the action from being implemented, the character is
still a "target" because "
an action that is played out through one or more specific entities as stated on a card or in the rules is considered to 'target' the entities. A targeted entity is said to be a 'target' of the action."
Actions declared/resolved when playing A Lie in Your Eyes
- Action 1: Play of the A Lie in Your Eyes Hazard short-event card:
- Target: the untapped non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard character
- Condition 1: It is your opponent's movement/hazard phase.
- Condition 2: There must be less hazards already declared than the hazard limit.
- Action 2: Opponent chooses one of (A) tap the character, (B) tap an ally the character controls, or (C) choose for you to make a roll (draw a #)
- Action 3: Tap (the character)
- Target: The character
- Condition: The opponent chose (A) tap the character
- Action 4: Tap (an ally the character controls)
- Target: The ally (the character controls)
- Condition: The opponent chose (B) tap an ally the character controls
- Action 5: Hazard player makes a roll
- Condition: The opponent chose (C) choose for you to make a roll (draw a #)
- Action 6: Discard (the character along with all cards he controls)
- Target: The character
- Condition 1: The opponent chose (C) choose for you to make a roll (draw a #)
- Condition 2: The result is greater than the character's mind plus 6
- Additional discard actions for "all cards he controls"
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Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 am
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:54 pm
Discarding of the item is clearly a cost, it is price that restricts the player from invoking the action.
What if Token of Goodwill will be canceled before resolved (by Many Sorrows Befall for example), or fizzled?
Will be an item discarded?
Yes, the item will be discarded because this is an active condition that must be satisfied at declaration per Annotation 6. It is an active condition because discarding an item is a cost restricting the player from invoking actions. Of course, Token may be played without an item, in which case the active condition is not satisfied and the corresponding action (the roll adding the diplomat's unused DI) that required the item to be discarded is not declared per Annotation 6.
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:09 am
For me this is a crucial difference between discarding as an active condition and discarding as main effect.
Former happens at declaration, latter when an action resolves.
This game does not use currency to pay costs. Costs are paid by establishing some game state using the limited actions allowed by the rules. Costs are also paid by paying (losing) the game state that you used your limited actions to create. Having an item in play required the player to use their limited actions (drawing a card, moving a company to a site, playing the card, etc.). Discarding your own resource (item) or character that you brought into play is a cost because it restricts you from taking that action -- the game only provides limited actions to the player for creating the game state. Tapping your own resource (item) or character that you brought into play is a cost because it restricts you from taking that action -- the game only provides limited actions to the player for creating the game state.
Tapping or discarding of your own cards by your own resource is an active condition because it is a cost. And costs must be paid upfront. I don't know of any game where costs are not paid upfront. Tapping/discarding of your own cards is never a "main effect" unless the card/rules specifies that timing is not upfront. For example, tapping a character to influence a faction is an active condition but the tapping the site is not an active condition since the timing is specified to happen when the faction is successfully influenced. Or another example is where your card is "discarded after something happens."
The expression "main effect" of Annotation 6 is some other beneficial effect (not a cost) -- one that either builds your game state or makes it easier to build your game state beyond what is allowed in the rules. Discarding/tapping of your own cards would never be a "main effect" per annotation 6.
The "main effect" of Token of Goodwill is "
you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand." This is an action that is not allowed by the rules, which improves your game state by allowing you to draw a card, especially a card that you choose.
Hazards are different from resources but it works in a similar fashion. Tapping of opponents characters and resources is not a cost. Tapping of opponents cards by hazards is always a main effect. The opponent' game state is the cost for hazards because it restricts the hazard player from taking actions. Tapping/discarding of your own hazards by your own hazards is a cost since you spent limited game actions to create your hazard game state.