A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

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the Jabberwock
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A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:05 am

There has been some debate as to whether or not these cards over-ride the normal restriction for characters to be played only during the Organization Phase.

I feel the evidence is clear that they do over-ride this restriction and present the following points to support this:

1) In ICE Digest 585, Van makes the following answer:
2.) A Chance Meeting

May I use this card to bring my wizard in play ? And what will be the amount of his mind ? May I use ACM at any time during my turn (during movement hazard phase to assign the new character a strike; will this increase the number of hazards) ? May I play a second character with ACM during organisation phase ?

No, you can't use A Chance Meeting to bring in Wizards. You can only play A Chance Meeting when you are _at_ a site, normally, the Untap, Organization, Site and End of Turn phases.
He clearly suggests here that it is legal to play ACM any phase you are normally at a site.


2) In Middle-Earth The Wizards Player Guide page 95, it says:
A Chance Meeting allows you to play a character outside of the organization phase and/or bring in an additional character in one turn. Tactically, this gives you many options. In addition to simply being able to reinforce a company, you can have a company of strong fighters move to a site, face the hazards and automatic-attacks and then bring in a scout who plays a scout skill card during the site phase. The scout would not have to face any attacks and risk being tapped or worse. Combining A Chance Meeting, a scout in your hand, and Thorough Search allows you to play an additional item at a site with no foreseeable risk to the scout.
There is clearly no ambiguity to the above. This is an ICE manufactured manual.

I propose the following clarifications be issued:
A Chance Meeting -

- May be played any time the applicable company is at a site.
- May be used to bring in an additional character during a turn.
We Have Come to Kill -

- May be played any time the applicable company is at a site.

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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:16 am

Blind to the West and Ire of the East may be played "at any time".
"Any time" is not restricted to player's turn, nor to opponent's turn.
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Theo » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:18 am

@Konrad Klar
Good catch.

@the Jabberwock
[retracted] Furthermore, Thrall of the Voice specifies that it may only be played during the organization phase, which would have been unnecessary if a lack of specificity defaulted to organization-phase-only. :)
Last edited by Theo on Sun May 06, 2018 1:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by the Jabberwock » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:38 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:16 am
Blind to the West and Ire of the East may be played "at any time".
"Any time" is not restricted to player's turn, nor to opponent's turn.
Good point. Thank you. I amend my proposal then to the following:
A Chance Meeting -

- May be played on your turn during any phase the applicable company is at a site.
- May be used to bring in an additional character during a turn.
We Have Come to Kill -

- May be played on your turn during any phase the applicable company is at a site.

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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:44 am

@Theo: you are right, but I read the Jabberwock's post as a clarification proposal, not as an errata proposal, so it is acceptable that it will include a things that can be inferred from existing rules*. :)

*) Namely from:
Lidless Eye wrote:Clarification: Hazard short-events and permanent-events can be played only during an opponent's movement/hazard phase. Resource short-events and permanent-events can be played at any time during your turn as limited by specific card text.
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Theo » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:35 am

@Konrad
Definitely support your point. Your post came in while I was writing mine. :o Clarified above!
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Bandobras Took » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:17 am

Theo wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:18 am
@the Jabberwock
Furthermore, Thrall of the Voice specifies that it may only be played during the organization phase, which would have been unnecessary if a lack of specificity defaulted to organization-phase-only. :)
Not necessarily; that phrase means you can't use Thrall to have a six-minder join your company after a successful influence attempt.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Theo » Sat May 05, 2018 7:07 pm

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:17 am
Theo wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:18 am
@the Jabberwock
Furthermore, Thrall of the Voice specifies that it may only be played during the organization phase, which would have been unnecessary if a lack of specificity defaulted to organization-phase-only. :)
Not necessarily; that phrase means you can't use Thrall to have a six-minder join your company after a successful influence attempt.
Could you elaborate? I feel like I'm not understanding. If a lack of specificity defaulted to organization-phase-only, you still wouldn't be able to bring a character into play after a successful influence attempt...
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat May 05, 2018 8:06 pm

If Thrall's ability did not specify that the character could only be brought in during the organization phase, a person could use its ability after a successful influence attempt against an opponent's six-mind character to then play the character during the site phase, which is otherwise impossible.

A lack of specificity can default to the organization phase if there is a specific exception outlined in the rules for the play of a character as a result of an influence attempt. I believe this is the case, because the rules on character play mention only the organization phase method and do not mention character play as the result of an influence attempt. In this case, even though there is a default, there is a rules-based exception to the default, necessitating the limiter on Thrall.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Theo » Sun May 06, 2018 1:05 am

Ah, I think I see your point now, thanks.

I would have been of the opinion that "instead of a normal character" would have already precluded bringing in a 6-mind character after an influence attempt, since as you say that is not normally how characters are brought into play. But I now see how what is "normal" is muddy enough that it would have been worth putting in the redundancy. Consider the attempt at Thrall of the Voice supporting evidence retracted.
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 am

I'm regretting our choice for treating WHCtK and ACM as a package, actually. Of course they are similar, but not the same cards.

Thank's to those elaborations from the METW Player Guide and Van's ruling we know how ICE intended ACM could be used. However, on the card itself these rules-restrictions are not explicitly overturned. As rule of thumb we say card over rule, but then the card must be explicit. Here's it's not. Let's say ICE was not thinking it through.

However, WHCtK is explicit in overturning the 1 character per turn rule. But it mentions nothing of the timing. Also, is there an example for WHCtK similar to ACM in the MELE player guide?

And if these cards can circumvent certain rules, people could bring up to the ROC other rules for them to circumvent. There's no nice ruling or ICE manual to back it up, but neither is there for WHCtK, so it can be done.
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:02 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 am
As rule of thumb we say card over rule, but then the card must be explicit. Here's it's not. Let's say ICE was not thinking it through.
Text of the card must be explicit when the card overrides a rule or restriction of other card.

A Chance Meeting allows to bring into play a character (even a Hobbit) at site of given type.
There is no rule that disallow to bring into play a Hobbit (or a Man, or an Orc) outside its home site.
All current Hobbits have a restriction in their texts, that does not allow to bring them into play outside their home site or in starting company.
But the restriction has nothing to do with rules regarding a Hobbits. Fram Framsom has similar restriction (he even cannot be in starting company).

ICE authors were distracted and often trying to address an issue not in place where the issue is lying.
Funny fragment of CRF:
You may influence a Hobbit if you are not at Bag End.
Let's skip "You may" (a character in a company may influence a Hobbit if the company is not at Bag End).
But was there a problem whether it is possible to make an influence attempt outside of target's character home site?
No word about playing a Hobbit after successful attempt.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 am
However, WHCtK is explicit in overturning the 1 character per turn rule.
It is true that a character brought into play with WHCtK does not count against the one character per turn limit. The same may be said about a character played in result of successful influence attempt.
Just because such limit does not exist.
Player may bring into play in organization phase one character, or instead he may discard one character. But no one ponders whether effects that discard a character count against one discarded character per turn limit.

Text of We Have Come to Kill is another example of addressing an issue not in place where it is lying.
Ignoring the "Resource short-events and permanent-events can be played at any time during your turn as limited by specific card text." may lead to assumption that A Chance Meeting alters the action "bringing into play in organization phase one character".
Instead to clarify that A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill follow a general rules and may be played in any phase, ICE decided to include in text of We Have Come to Kill the information that lead to assumption that:
- there is one character per turn limit (despite the fact that possibility of playing a character in result of successful influence attempt was never mentioned as depending on taking a bring/discard action in organization phase),
- a character played with A Chance Meeting, unlike a character played with We Have Come to Kill, counts against the limit.
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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:41 pm

@ Konrad: There is another possibility.

Since the one character limit only exists for playing a a character during the organization phase, WHCtK only applies to that process, since it specifically mentions that limit.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:16 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 am
However, WHCtK is explicit in overturning the 1 character per turn rule. But it mentions nothing of the timing. Also, is there an example for WHCtK similar to ACM in the MELE player guide?
Here is what the MELE Player's Guide says about We Have Come to Kill:
We Have Come to Kill
You may have noticed that many of the cards in this section allow you to recycle a character you drew at the wrong time. We Have Come to Kill gets around this problem by letting you bring in a character while you are at a site doing something else. One of the beauties of this card is that it does not have to be played during the organization phase when you normally bring characters into play. You could even use We Have Come to Kill to bring in a character during the site phase, after the automatic-attack has been faced. That character comes into play untapped, having effectively avoided the automatic-attack and all creature hazards that turn.
So the intent here by ICE is the same as for A Chance Meeting, as the MELE PG is also an ICE manufactured publication.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 am
And if these cards can circumvent certain rules, people could bring up to the ROC other rules for them to circumvent. There's no nice ruling or ICE manual to back it up, but neither is there for WHCtK, so it can be done.
I think this is not a concern now as there is an ICE manual to backup the idea that WHCTK is meant to act similar to ACM (as quoted above). I don't know what other rules might be brought up to the ROC that these cards may circumvent, but they would need to have some proper justification of course to be considered.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 am
I'm regretting our choice for treating WHCtK and ACM as a package, actually. Of course they are similar, but not the same cards.
Perhaps it would have been more ideal to have ACM and WHCTK as separate ballot items. However, given the above information from the Player Guides and given we already had 43 separate ballot items for the membership to review, it seems reasonable that they are combined. The idea that someone would vote for one and not the other (in light of the above), is hard for me to grasp.
However, you bring up a good point nonetheless about the supplemental material supporting ACM, and I should have included the WHKTC Player's Guide except in this ballot item for the membership to view.

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Re: A Chance Meeting / We Have Come to Kill

Post by Bandobras Took » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:37 am

I would love to see texts of the player guides come up on the site if possible. It would be nice to have sources of insight into ICE's intentions available to the player base.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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