The White Tree

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:36 am

The White Tree, METW Limited Edition wrote:Unique. Sage only at Minas Tirith. Playable only if a Sapling of the White Tree is at Minas Tirith. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [-me_ha-] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards. And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed, and he shall plant it in high places, and the City shall be blessed.-LotRVI
The White Tree, METW Unlimited Edition wrote:Unique. Sage only at Minas Tirith. Playable only if a Sapling of the White Tree is at Minas Tirith and is discarded. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [-me_ha-] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards. And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed, and he shall plant it in high places, and the City shall be blessed.-LotRVI
CRF, Errata (Cards), The White Tree wrote:Card Erratum: Add "Discard the Sapling of the White Tree."
As seen, text of the version from METW Unlimited Edition has been changed not accordingly to CRF Errata. Or the errata applies to the version from METW Unlimited Edition; then the card would require a two copies of Sapling of the White Tree - one to be discarded at declaration, other as target of action "discard".
It is unclear (and is a matter of controversies) whether "if a Sapling of the White Tree is at Minas Tirith" covers a situation where Sapling of the White Tree is stored at Minas Tirith. If not, then a player would have a dilemma: whether to store Sapling of the White Tree, or reserve it for purposes of playing The White Tree.

I propose the following erratum:

Unique. Sage only at Minas Tirith. Playable only if your Sapling of the White Tree is at or is stored at Minas Tirith and is discarded. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [-me_ha-] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards. And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed, and he shall plant it in high places, and the City shall be blessed.-LotRVI

(I think that "your" is needed. Discarding of Sapling of the White Tree is a condition, but a Sapling of the White Tree is not a target, therefore without "your" a player could discard an opponent's copy)
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Jose-san
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Jose-san » Tue May 08, 2018 11:50 am

Now, I'm confused. Can The White Tree be played by discarding a stored sapling? Is a stored item currently at a site?

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Re: The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 08, 2018 12:55 pm

Jose-san wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:50 am
Can The White Tree be played by discarding a stored sapling?
With proposed errata - yes.
Jose-san wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:50 am
Is a stored item currently at a site?
No.
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Jose-san » Tue May 08, 2018 1:40 pm

Ok, then I propose the following wording:

Unique. Sage only at Minas Tirith. Playable only if your Sapling of the White Tree is at or was stored at Minas Tirith and is discarded. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [-me_ha-] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards.

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Re: The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 08, 2018 1:47 pm

Accepted.
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Theo
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Theo » Wed May 09, 2018 3:30 am

Weird corner case with Neither So Ancient Nor So Potent: someone returns the Sapling to the player's hand, who then plays it and claims that it is the same Sapling that was stored at Minas Tirith. Not that they should get away with the claim, since there is no way to verify it is the same Sapling, but I could see this absurd scenario causing potential confusion.

More seriously, Saplings aren't unique so the use of "your Sapling of the White Tree is at" as a singular seems a little curious.

Maybe:
"Unique. Sage only at Minas Tirith. Playable only if you discard a Sapling of the White Tree controlled by one of your characters at Minas Tirith, or one from your MP pile that was stored at Minas Tirith. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [-me_ha-] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards."
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 09, 2018 9:13 am

Accepted.
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Theo
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Theo » Wed May 09, 2018 7:51 pm

On the other hand, I'm not sure that the intended play wasn't to allow discarding an opponents Sapling. Maybe jerks that were hording away their own Sapling instead of sharing it with others (making a new Haven) should lose their prestige when another wizard realizes it's there and nourishes it into a full tree. :roll:
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed May 09, 2018 9:59 pm

On the third hand I am not sure that ICE's intention was discarding a stored Sapling of the White Tree. Maybe ICE preferred to give a player a choice: to store a Sapling of the White Tree, or to save it for purpose of playing The White Tree?
This erratum proposal tries both to reflect a notion that a player cannot use opponent's Sapling of the White Tree as a condition of The White Tree, and to reflect a notion that he can use stored Sapling of the White Tree as a condition of The White Tree.
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Re: The White Tree

Post by Shapeshifter » Mon May 21, 2018 3:21 pm

I just found out that the White Tree in the Saruman challenge deck as an altered card text:
Unique. Sage only. Playable if your sage and your Sapling of the White Tree (stored or borne by a character) are at Minas Tirith. Discard the Sapling of the White Tree. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [ [-me_ha-] ] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards.
This wording is almost the same as the proposed erratum but original by ICE. I propose to use this wording for the CoE erratum.

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Re: The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon May 21, 2018 5:58 pm

This thread has been recreated after server failure. In original thread some discussants expressed opinion that they prefer discarding a Sapling of the White Tree as condition, not as main effect.
In the version from Saruman challenge deck a discarding a Sapling of the White Tree is main effect. I cannot satisfy everyone's preferences. Sorry.

P.S.
It is shame that ICE issued three versions of the same card plus errata that have different meaning depending on version to which it is applied.
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Re: The White Tree

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon May 21, 2018 8:37 pm

Shapeshifter wrote: This wording is almost the same as the proposed erratum but original by ICE. I propose to use this wording for the CoE erratum.
Sounds great to me. Nice find!


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Re: The White Tree

Post by Theo » Mon May 21, 2018 10:14 pm

I would be concerned that a stored item is "at" your Marshalling Points pile, not at a site.
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Re: The White Tree

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue May 22, 2018 3:35 am

Apologies, I did not see Konrad's last post when i made my last post.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:58 pm
This thread has been recreated after server failure. In original thread some discussants expressed opinion that they prefer discarding a Sapling of the White Tree as condition, not as main effect.
In the version from Saruman challenge deck a discarding a Sapling of the White Tree is main effect.
Konrad - your point is that with the Challenge Deck verbiage you would still be able to discard your opponent's Sapling. Is that correct?

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Re: The White Tree

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue May 22, 2018 10:14 am

No. Version from Saruman challenge deck is free from such problem.
It creates the action "discard" that has target - Sapling of the White Tree - and by general rules your resources cannot target an opponent's resources.

In version from METW Unlimited Edition, and in version proposed by me, discarding Sapling of the White Tree is a condition fulfilled at declaration.
General rules allow to use an opponent's resources as conditions (other than targets) of your resources and version from METW Unlimited Edition allows discarding an opponent's Sapling of the White Tree.

"Unique. Sage only at Minas Tirith. Playable only if you discard a Sapling of the White Tree controlled by one of your characters at Minas Tirith, or one from your MP pile that was stored at Minas Tirith. Minas Tirith becomes a Haven [-me_ha-] for the purposes of healing and playing hazards."

excludes opponent's Sapling of the White Tree.

Except twisted syntax the version from Saruman challenge deck is OK, but it does not work in the same way as version proposed by me (with suggestions of Theo applied).
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