Old Road

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar »

the Jabberwock wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:19 pm
I'm not sure if he is giving his personal opinion of how he thinks the card should be played, or if he is giving his interpretation of the current rules regarding Old Road.
I am giving my opinion, not current rulings regarding Old Road.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:19 pm
If you vote YES, then it will be established that Old Road is playable only during the site phase at a Haven, and that Old Road does otherwise not circumvent any rules for making an influence attempt against a faction (other than those listed on the card).
I agree. The errata does not touch the question of tapping a Haven. This means that it also does not remove the controversy whether the influence attempt is performed at site, or merely is performed by character at site.
As I said before this is a separate question.
Voting YES for the errata does not mean a sharing my opinion in question of (not)tapping a Haven.
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Old Road

Post by the JabberwocK »

Vastor Peredhil wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:28 pm
havens return to the location deck though
Yes, correct, I mis-spoke, thanks.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Old Road

Post by CDavis7M »

Thanks for the discussion and clarification.

My main interest in Old Road is using it with a road blocking hazard deck (Doors of Night, the will of Sauron, Perils Returned, Fell Winter, Long Winter, and Snowstorm). The Hero deck uses Aragorn and Arwen (choice of luthien) to play MP resources and factions in Gondor and nearby. The Hero deck attempts to double up on site-specific MPs using Old Road (and the similar Dark Minions card) and Fireworks.

The hazards then require the Bombadil resource cards "Master of Wood, Water, and Hill," and "Hey come Merry dol" to move around in wilderness.

Anyway, with Old Road tapping the Haven, it means you can't just hole up there in Edhellond. So you need a lot more cards and luck to get this roadblock/Gondor faction strategy to work. If Old Road didn't tap the Haven, it would be pretty powerful at Lorien as well.

Regardless, the roadblock strategy in my deck is mostly just a distraction to burn resource cards so that I can keep Doors/perils and Fell Winter in play to use double/triple wilderness drakes... I might be over thinking this though.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar »

Text of Old Road (before and after errata) does not require an untapped Haven. The same for Hour of Need.
Still that is debatable whether Haven must be untapped to play the cards.
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Old Road

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:00 pm
Text of Old Road (before and after errata) does not require an untapped Haven. The same for Hour of Need.
Still that is debatable whether Haven must be untapped to play the cards.
The rules/rulings currently state that the Haven must be tapped after a successful influence attempt using Old Road.

Old Road also does not circumvent any rules for making an influence attempt against a faction (other than those listed on the card).

Thus it seems clear to me that the Haven must be untapped to make an attempt using Old Road, just as Variag Camp must be untapped to make an attempt against Variags of Khand (not using Old Road), etc.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar »

Text of Variags of Khand does not state that the faction may be played in site phase only.
For a reason; this is default.
Resource short-events and permanent-events may be played in any phase of their player's turn, as restricted by their texts.
That was one of reasons for creating errata for Old Road: without explicit requirement of site phase the card could be played in any phase.
I know what rulings say about Old Road before errata. In my opinion they are wrong; they contradict with general rules regarding playability of resource short-events.
Old Road with errata requires site phase. Old Road with and without errata does not require an untapped Haven.
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Old Road

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:03 am
Text of Variags of Khand does not state that the faction may be played in site phase only.
For a reason; this is default.
Text of Variags of Khand also does not state that an untapped site is required for play.
For a reason; this is default.

Old Road with errata does otherwise not circumvent any rules for making an influence attempt against a faction.
(bold mine)

Tapping of the site is a rule related to making an influence attempt against a faction (as well as for playing other site-tapping resources). Old Road does not circumvent this.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar »

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:16 pm
Text of Variags of Khand also does not state that an untapped site is required for play.
For a reason; this is default.
Just that; this is default... for factions.
If the default for factions (items) would be automatically applied to short-events that allow to play a faction (item), then "Playable ... during site phase" in text of Old Road (Bounty of the Hoard) is redundant.

In my opinion, if conditions written on a resource short-event card are met, then the short-event card may be played and the card causes what it states.
If an action that the short-event causes otherwise would have additional conditions, the conditions are ignored. They do not need to be explicitly overridden.
If a resource short-event card is not limited by its text to any phase and causes an action otherwise possible in X phase, it may be played in any phase and causes the action in any phase.
If a resource short-event card does not require untapped site and causes an action that otherwise requires an untapped site, it may be played and causes the action regardless of tapped/untapped state of a site.

I want to stress that the question: whether a site, where influencing character is present, taps or does not tap after successful attempt, is separate thing (separate from mechanics of a resource short-events).
Because it is not matter of a conditions, but matter of a results.
It depends on consideration: whether an attempt is considered to be performed at site, or the attempt is merely performed by character at site (but attempt itself is not performed at any location).
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Shapeshifter
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Re: Old Road

Post by Shapeshifter »

I agree with Konrad's logic about short events. In the case of Old Road (and of many other rulings), however, it is very important to know about ICE's intentions.
IIRC the only purpose of this ruling that Old Road is tapping the haven site is that there were decks around that played lots of factions (usually two in one turn) in all safety at a haven. The same decks are responsible for the ruling on Hour of Need.

From my point of view both rulings should have been errata. Maybe ICE didn't have the time or forgot about turning those rulings into real errata.

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Theo
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Re: Old Road

Post by Theo »

If you ignore the rules that explain a situation because you claim the an event that creates a new situation is creating an alternative to those rules, then a lot of short events' effects aren't fully specified.

Case in point: Old Road and/or Hour of Need. If either circumvents the normal rules, what is the effect after the faction is played?? The normal rules state that factions that are successfully influenced are placed in the marshaling points pile and count toward your marshaling points total. But if you want to say that either of these cards circumvents such rules, then it's just... played. An opponent would be well within their rights to then argue that a faction played by such a circumventing mechanic does NOT count toward your marshaling points total, because no where on the card does it state that the faction played with the card counts toward marshaling points.

Alternatively, some creation effects might be interpreted as modifications rather than alternatives to existing rules.
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Re: Old Road

Post by Bandobras Took »

Shapeshifter wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:56 pm
From my point of view both rulings should have been errata. Maybe ICE didn't have the time or forgot about turning those rulings into real errata.
Given their general imprecision with regards to rules and terminology in this game, it's likely they didn't understand the difference.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:24 pm
If you ignore the rules that explain a situation because you claim the an event that creates a new situation is creating an alternative to those rules, then a lot of short events' effects aren't fully specified.

Case in point: Old Road and/or Hour of Need. If either circumvents the normal rules, what is the effect after the faction is played?? The normal rules state that factions that are successfully influenced are placed in the marshaling points pile and count toward your marshaling points total. But if you want to say that either of these cards circumvents such rules, then it's just... played. An opponent would be well within their rights to then argue that a faction played by such a circumventing mechanic does NOT count toward your marshaling points total, because no where on the card does it state that the faction played with the card counts toward marshaling points.

Alternatively, some creation effects might be interpreted as modifications rather than alternatives to existing rules.
You are ignoring, what I said before:
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:17 pm
Because it is not matter of a conditions, but matter of a results.
Where the faction is being placed after an successful attempt against it is not condition (of a faction, or an event) but a result of the attempt.
The same for tapping a site after successful attempt.
Old Road and, Hour of Need alter conditions.
If it comes to site phase Old Road before errata alters it implicitly, Hour of Need explicitly.
If it comes to untapped site both cards alter it implicitly. Bounty of the Hoard alters it explicitly.

(Not) tapping a site after successful attempt has nothing to do with convention of playing a resource short-events.
It depends on consideration: whether an attempt is considered to be performed at site, or the attempt is merely performed by character at site (but attempt itself is not performed at any location, like in case of attempt made by Roäc the Raven).

If someone accepts my opinion about playability of a resource short-events that allow to play a faction, it does not mean that he accepts my opinion about not tapping a site after successful attempt made by Old Road and, Hour of Need.

BTW. question of whether a faction has been played at given site or merely by character at site is important also due to No Strangers at this Time. And Prophet of Doom is involved too.
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Theo
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Re: Old Road

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:23 am
You are ignoring, what I said before:
Rather, I did not sufficiently correlate my comment to those earlier.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:03 am
Old Road with and without errata does not require an untapped Haven.
vs.
MELE: Resource Cards, Non-Event wrote: A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site.
The original Old Road "allows a character at a haven to attempt to bring a faction into play". Circumventing the requirement of an untapped site is not explicitly on the card, so, in my mind, the faction which Old Road allows a character to attempt to play at a haven still requires the character's site to be untapped (along with tapping the site afterward).

The repeated argument against this sort of reasoning (for this and other cards) has been that wording such as what Old Road has been changed to creates an alternative form of "playing" that automatically circumvents all of the originals playing rules (not just the subset explicitly circumvented in the card text). If that is the case, then it should also "circumvent" the rule that the playing of the faction enables counting of its marshaling points. Picking and choosing to allow the faction played by Old Road to still give marshaling points but not require an untapped site seems like an arbitrary and unjustifiable distinction (from the viewpoint of rules interpretation; fine for rules modification).
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the JabberwocK
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Re: Old Road

Post by the JabberwocK »

Theo makes a good point.

The intent of this statement in the recent ARV:

"If you vote YES, then it will be established that Old Road is playable only during the site phase at a Haven, and that Old Road does otherwise not circumvent any rules for making an influence attempt against a faction (other than those listed on the card)"...

Is meant to reinforce that ALL standard rules (not mentioned on the card) relating to bringing a faction into play stay the same (including the need for an untapped site).

While I understand the logic behind Konrad's argument, suggesting that Old Road may be played over and over again at a site which is already tapped goes against the spirit of what Old Road is meant to do: it is meant to allow for play of a faction at a Haven instead of the normal site. It is NOT meant to allow for abuse by playing many factions from the same tapped Haven site. The ARV language supports this.

Suggesting Old Road is playable at a tapped site really takes us down a rabbit hole. :shock:

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Old Road

Post by Konrad Klar »

Now I am not sure, how you guys imagine how a faction played in result of Old Road/Hour of Need is being played.

I imagine that that happens in the same chain of effects.

If someone imagines that first the Old Road, Hour of Need need to be resolved, and then (in next chain of effects) the faction may be played under conditions enabled by the cards, then I understand that someone's objections.

Then enabling a playing a factions under altered conditions is result of Old Road/Hour of Need. And then what has not been altered remains standard (untapped site among others).

I imagine that that happens in the same chain of effects and that Old Road, Hour of Need do not enable anything.
I.e. influence attempt is result of the cards, where the card is placed is in turn a result of the attempt; possibility of making an influence attempt under altered conditions is not a result of the cards.
There is nothing to pick and choose arbitrarily.
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