Paths of the Dead

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Khamul the Easterling
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Paths of the Dead

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:40 pm

Current text reads:

Playable only at the end of the organization phase. For its movement, a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.

I propose the text be changed into:

Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow. For its movement, the company may move to the Vale of Erech site. If the company does so, the only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.

This card has been (ab)used in the past to play it on any (Aragorn) company moving elsewhere and avoiding the play of non-Undead creatures. The card's original intention seems clear to me, but rules interpretation argued against that.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:33 pm

I do not want to start a discussion in this thread, but only to express my opinion.

I think that "If the company does so" should be removed.
All special movement cards that say "a company may move here or there" do not say that the company may move or may not move. They say where the company may move. A movement is mandatory.
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Khamul the Easterling
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:48 pm

That's ok! :)

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 04, 2018 9:45 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:33 pm
I do not want to start a discussion in this thread, but only to express my opinion.

I think that "If the company does so" should be removed.
All special movement cards that say "a company may move here or there" do not say that the company may move or may not move. They say where the company may move. A movement is mandatory.

So to clarify, you are saying this:
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow. For its movement, the company may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
... is sufficient to enact the intended movement restriction?

I don't see how removing "if the company does so" makes the proposed erratum do what he is suggesting (ie. significantly different from the original card text.) Can you explain the difference please?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri May 04, 2018 10:04 pm

the Jabberwock wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:45 pm
So to clarify, you are saying this:

Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow. For its movement, the company may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.

... is sufficient to enact the intended movement restriction?
Yes.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:45 pm
I don't see how removing "if the company does so" makes the proposed erratum do what he is suggesting (ie. significantly different from the original card text.) Can you explain the difference please?
Including "if the company does so" would suggest that a target company has an option, while (in my opinion) it does not have. The card allows a target company a movement to Vale of Erech. But the company must move and must move to Vale of Erech, nowhere else.

It would lead to similar circus like in case of "This does not count against the one character per turn limit." in text of We Have Come to Kill, suggesting that there is such limit.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri May 04, 2018 10:16 pm

Right, I understand your point, but why would the original text:
Playable only at the end of the organization phase. For its movement, a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II may move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
.... not also require the same restriction?

The fact that the proposed erratum is played "on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow" makes all the difference? Will you explain why, please?

Both versions say "For its movement" and then describe who and what movement may take place.

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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 05, 2018 12:47 am

Original version has displaced part of its playability conditions to main effect*. It may be played at the end of the organization phase regardless of presence of company at Dunharrow, and Aragorn II. A company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II (if any) may, but does not must, move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company, whether it moves or not.

Suggestion #2:
Replace:
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow
with
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow if your Vale of Erech is in play or in Location Deck.

*) the same for original Come at Need, Old Cache, Await the Advent of Allies.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat May 05, 2018 2:42 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 12:47 am
Original version has displaced part of its playability conditions to main effect*. It may be played at the end of the organization phase regardless of presence of company at Dunharrow, and Aragorn II. A company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II (if any) may, but does not must, move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company, whether it moves or not.
I understand that the original version allows you to play the card (and get it out of your hand) even if you don't have a company at Dunharrow that contains Aragorn II. I understand that the second version (proposed erratum) prevents this playing of the card without Aragorn company at Dunharrow being present.

What I do not understand is why this statement means Aragorn's company must move and must only move to Vale of Erech:
For its movement, the company may move to the Vale of Erech site.
And why this statement means Aragorn's company may move to Vale of Erech or may move anywhere else (and still receive the benefit of non-Undead creatures not being played):
For its movement, a company that starts at the Dunharrow site and contains Aragorn II may move to the Vale of Erech site.

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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat May 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Because original version is not playable on anything (unlike other events that allow for a special movement, that I know) it looks and is/was treated not in the same way as other events that allow a special movement.
It would be read like Ash Mountains, for example, that gives a possibility of moving as if some regions was adjacent, but not forcing a company to take advantage of this possibility. Or like discarding Cram that does not force a company to move through five regions.

With proposed erratum (with or without my suggestions accepted) it targets a company, and special movement for which it allows may be treated in uniform way, like all other special movements allowed by other events.

In my opinion all events that allow for a special movement, do not give an option to use or not use the special movement. If they say that company may move here or there they restrict a possible new sites to here or there.
You can discard Cram for its 2nd effect, or play Ash Mountains for bluff, but you cannot play Paths of the Dead, or Eagle-Mounts and then use region, starter, or under-deeps movement for first M/H phase of target company.
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Theo
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Theo » Thu May 17, 2018 7:46 pm

I would prefer both Dunharrow or Vale of Erech to be allowed as either starting and ending sites. Since the books describe no cliffjumping or other one-way junctions, it seems reasonable that Aragorn could take the Paths from either side, or even go half way---to the shut door, say---and turn around.

Also, not sure why a Slayer hanging out waiting for them to emerge shouldn't work, but that's an additional shift from the original and not super important for me.

My suggestion:
  • Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. The company can move to Dunharrow or Vale of Erech this turn. If it does, the only hazard creatures (other than those keyed to a site) that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sat May 19, 2018 1:44 pm

Theo wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:46 pm
My suggestion:
  • Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. The company can move to Dunharrow or Vale of Erech this turn. If it does, the only hazard creatures (other than those keyed to a site) that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
I'd propose to remove the "(other than those keyed to a site)" part of your suggestion. That would usually allow the play of any border-hold creatures.
The original version allows only the play of Undead which is more restrictive. I find that ok given the fact the card has very low frequency of play.

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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Shapeshifter » Wed May 23, 2018 7:08 pm

Adressing Konrad's concern how about this version (bolded part)?
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow. The company must attempt to move to the Vale of Erech site. The only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
Furthermore I think that "For it's movement" is redundant and therefore removed it. At least in the text of Eagle Mounts which all in all reads quite similar it just says "Company may move to ...".

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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sun May 27, 2018 11:18 am

"must attempt" wouldn't make an exception to the normal region movement rules, so here's a new proposal to make clear the card actually allows the special movement (bold is a change from Shapeshifter's latest proposal):
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company containing Aragorn II at Dunharrow or Vale of Erech. The company may move to Dunharrow or Vale of Erech this turn. If it does, the only hazard creatures that may be played on this company are Undead, but any Undead may be played on the company.
I also deleted the "other than those keyed to a site", as the original card also prevents the play of non-Undead creatures keyed to the site as far as I understand it.

Besides, I suggest: This form of movement should be considered "special movement".
Undead played during the MH-phase are not keyed to anything.

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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun May 27, 2018 2:05 pm

"If it does" (not present in original version) suggest that a company may opt to not to move, or may opt to move using other method. Is it intentional?
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Re: Paths of the Dead

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sun May 27, 2018 7:27 pm

Why not?
The other option would be " ... The company must move from Dunharrow to Vale of Erech ... " Would you prefer that?

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