Beginning/end of phase and turn

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Konrad Klar
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Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

It is not clear when exactly a beginning of phase/turn ends and when exactly an end of phase/turn begins and ends.
Therefore it is unclear when exactly an actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning/end of phase/turn may be (or are) declared.


I propose following regulation of the questions:

Acronyms:

ABP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning of given phase or a turn.
AEP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) end of given phase or a turn.

Beginning of a phase/turn:

This period begins at start of a phase/turn and ends when all players announce that they will not declare any ABP starting a chain of effects and when all triggered ABP are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared in response to ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered ABP are declared before ABP that may be taken by players.

End of a phase/turn:

This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved.
This period ends when all players announce that they will not declare any action and when all declared actions are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared in response to AEP are other AEP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered AEP are declared before AEP that may be taken by players.


Examples:

At beginning of end-of-turn phase a player taps Wizard's Staff (ABP). In response other ABP may be declared or action that targets corruption check.
Hazard player passes. Resource player declares New Friendship. Hazard player declares Blind to the West (on declared New Friendship).

At the end of turn there are in play: Covetous Thoughts, The Nazgul Are Abroad, Doors of Night, and From the Pits of Angband.
The corruption check from Covetous Thoughts is declared first. Players may declare in response action that targets the cc, or declare returning a Nazgul, or unique Dragon manifestation or Drake. The latter actions may be also declared after chain of effects started by cc from Covetous Thoughts is resolved.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:36 pm
It is not clear when exactly a beginning of phase/turn ends and when exactly an end of phase/turn begins and ends.
Therefore it is unclear when exactly an actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning/end of phase/turn may be (or are) declared.

Examples:

At beginning of end-of-turn phase a player taps Wizard's Staff (ABP). In response other ABP may be declared or action that targets corruption check.
Hazard player passes. Resource player declares New Friendship. Hazard player declares Blind to the West (on declared New Friendship).

At the end of turn there are in play: Covetous Thoughts, The Nazgul Are Abroad, Doors of Night, and From the Pits of Angband.
The corruption check from Covetous Thoughts is declared first. Players may declare in response action that targets the cc, or declare returning a Nazgul, or unique Dragon manifestation or Drake. The latter actions may be also declared after chain of effects started by cc from Covetous Thoughts is resolved.
What is the purpose of this clarification? https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 103&t=3524

It doesn't matter "when exactly an actions that may be taken only at beginning/end of phase/turn" are declared because there are no timing issues. At least not in the examples given.


Regardless, the beginnings and ends of the phases are clear. The beginning of one phase happens after the end of the previous phase in the order shown in the turn summary. The actions triggered by the beginning/end of the phase are declared according to the rules on passive conditions.

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

For players who feel a need of regulation of question: what exactly are constraints of "beginning/end of phase and turn" period (when exactly it is started and when exactly it is terminated).
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:17 pm
Regardless, the beginnings and ends of the phases are clear.
Contrary to the what may appear, there is no universal agreement in question: when the end of phase happens.
CDavis7M has expressed opinion that end of M/H phase is synonymous of M/H being concluded.
Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving
company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down
to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be
played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both
players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
According to Annotation 25a it is a time when "No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be
played, and no resource effects can be activated".

Player's opinions regarding rules may differ, but in order to play they must agree to follow the (interpretation of) rules that are obligatory in their playgroup.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Here is a handy reference for people wondering where the beginnings and ends of the phases are according to the official Rules and Annotations (not based on this proposal).

Image

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

What is the source? Are the texts in red a part of original source, or they are inserted by you?
I have read somewhere (probably in CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications you are appreciating) that Houses of Healing may be played in untap phase before healing/untapping of characters.
From your scan I can infer that literally nothing may be played in untap phase. There are only activities specific for untap phase directly preceded by beginning of untap phase and directly followed by end of untap phase.
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:37 am
What is the source? Are the texts in red a part of original source, or they are inserted by you?
Source of the image: IMGUR.com
Creator of the image: Me
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:37 am
I have read somewhere (probably in CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications you are appreciating)
I think you have missed my lack of appreciation for CoE Rulings.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:37 am
I have read somewhere (probably in CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications you are appreciating) that Houses of Healing may be played in untap phase before healing/untapping of characters.
Sure, why not. There is no procedure for the Untap Phase.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:37 am
From your scan I can infer that literally nothing may be played in untap phase.
What is the reason for your inference? There is no rule restricting play of cards in the Untap Phase. Instead, the rule is "you may play resource cards anytime during your own tum unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves" (METW p.41, MELE p. 40).
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:37 am
There are only activities specific for untap phase directly preceded by beginning of untap phase and directly followed by end of untap phase.
The Untap Phase does not have a strict procedure for taking the untapping/healing actions. The player may take other actions before or after the these actions listed under the untap phase. Presumable the only requirement is that other cards are untapped after characters are healed or untapped. The "beginning" of the untap phase is just the earliest point before anything else has happened. There is no requirement for untapping/headling to be the first thing to happen.


The Movement/Hazard phase and the Site phase DO have a strict procedure. It is numbered in order. The site phase is also numbered. And the procedure is separate for each company.

"Movement/Hazard Phase
Follow this procedure for each of your companies. Each company has a separate movement/hazard phase.

So the "beginning" of the Movement/Hazard phase IS step "1) If the company has a face down new site card, turn it over (reveal it)." This HAS TO BE the beginning of the Movement/Hazard phase because it is the first step in the defined procedure.

Annotation 25 says that a company is not moving until the new site is revealed. Of course, because the revealing of the site is the first step in the movement/hazard procedure. Annotation 25b says "drawing cards when a new site is revealed is synonymous with the resolution of the new site being revealed. It happens immediately, not in the following chain of effects." So both Steps 1 and 2 happen at the same game-time and these activities are both the "beginning" of the Movement/Hazard Phase.
I) If the company has a face down new site card, turn it over (reveal it).
2) If the company is not moving, no cards are drawn. If the company is moving to a non-Darkhaven site, you may draw up to the number of cards indicated by the site that it is moving to (at least one card must be drawn); your opponent does the same. If the company is moving to a Dark.haven site, you may draw up to the number of cards indicated by the site that it is moving from (at least one card must be draw); your opponent does the same.

The last step in the Movement/Hazard phase procedure is
"6) You must discard any cards in excess of eight in your hand; your opponent does the same for his hand." So this is the "end" of the movement/hazard phase.
Annotation 25a says "A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes." The CRF also says "Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase."
So both Steps 5 and 6 happen at the same time. It actually doesn't matter because the Movement/Hazard phase is a procedure and there is nothing else that can happen in or between steps 5 and 6.

The Site phase is also a procedure -- "In the order you decide each of your companies may: do nothing or follow this procedure". The Site Phase is a strict procedure for each company same as the Movement/Hazard phase is a procedure.
"1) Enter its site" is the first step in the procedure. It is the "beginning" of the Site phase.
"4) ...attempt to include away" is the last step in the procedure. It is the "end" of the Site phase. This doesn't matter because no cards are drawn and there is always the End-of-Turn Phase to play cards.

The End-of-Turn phase is not a procedure. For the End-of-Turn phase, the "beginning" is the point AFTER each of your companies either "does nothing" or "follows the procedure" but before "you may discard one card." If a chain of effects is declared at the beginning, it should be obvious from the definition that no other chains can also be declared at the "beginning."

I don't know how much clearer the rules could be regarding beginning and end of phases. For me, this proposal makes it less clear.



But this was all a waste of my time. No amount of explanation or obviousness is sufficient for a few. And no one else seems to have any problems.

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:44 pm
Source of the image: IMGUR.com
Creator of the image: Me
So if it would be your proposal, not argument against mine, I would something to add.
Otherwise I am treating it as the same arguments that was presented earlier textually, presented now graphically.
Good luck with playing the Bridge.
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:30 pm
Good luck with playing the Bridge.
There is no problem playing Bridge.

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:01 pm
Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:30 pm
Good luck with playing the Bridge.
There is no problem playing Bridge.
Depending on when an end of M/H phase is considered to happen.
Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving
company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down
to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be
played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both
players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
Treat all cards/effects that may be played/activated at end of M/H phase as explicit exceptions from Annotation 25a and there will not be problem (or at least less of problems).

Or place end of M/H phase before step 5 on your scan and there will not be problem, nor need of explicit exceptions from Annotation 25a.
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Right...

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:36 pm
End of a phase/turn:

This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved.
This period ends when all players announce that they will not declare any action and when all declared actions are resolved.
This statement is inaccurate because the movement/hazard phase may be ended by resolution of a return-to-origin effect. In this situation, the End of the M/H phase is skipped. This is because the Movement/Hazard phase is a 6 step procedure with steps 5 and 6 being simultaneous. So the M/H phase is already over when (step 5) the once "new-site" now "site-of-origin" card is removed by the "returning" effect.

There are ICE rulings applying this reasoning to other effects that would trigger at the end of the movement/hazard phase, like corruption checks.

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

If some period is entirely skipped, then I do not understand why a statement that states when the period begins and when it ends would be inaccurate (for the reason that the period may be entirely skipped).
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:39 am
There are ICE rulings applying this reasoning to other effects that would trigger at the end of the movement/hazard phase, like corruption checks.
Do you mean CRF entry for Lure of Nature by chance?
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Because this is incorrect: the end of the Movement/Hazard phase "begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved."


I was thinking of the Q/A Rulings. Not the CRF on Lure of Nature, but it is there.

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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:15 pm
Because this is incorrect: the end of the Movement/Hazard phase "begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved."
But that was incorrect (according to you) earlier.
What more a returning to a site of origin brings here?

A strike sequence may be abruptly ended if some effect in the strike sequence will cause cc that in turn will cause discarding/eliminating a character facing the strike.

(For me) it is open question, what exactly happens when a company is returned.
Either a period "end of the Movement/Hazard phase" is started, or Movement/Hazard phase is concluded (hand is reconciled, new site's card is removed from table).

As I understand it is not problem for you, that if an end of company's M/H phase would be the same as moment when M/H phase is concluded, then cards like Bridge could only be played at the moment when no card may be normally played. It is no problem for you that ccs triggered by end of M/H phase cannot be targeted by resources (nor by hazards). Except of exceptions (as always).

But the idea that a company's phase may end without defined period "end of company's M/H phase" is a problem. And it is an evidence that the definition of the period is invalid.
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Re: Beginning/end of phase and turn

Post by CDavis7M »

Many conclusions without basis in the rules. There is no issue with playing Bridge or corruption check targeting resources at the end of the M/H phase. Of course, Bridge cannot be played after the End and there is no CC to target at that point either.

Again, there is no gameplay example where the definitions presented in this proposal matter. And there are correct gameplay examples where this proposal is inconsistent.

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