Removed from the Game & Removed from Play

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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the JabberwocK
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Removed from the Game & Removed from Play

Post by the JabberwocK »

There has been considerable debate on this topic in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3238
and there is no easy solution to be found. Both sides of the argument have merit and any decisions made add complications.

Nonetheless, something needs to be done about this.

I propose the following clarifications and errata:

Clarification:
Cards "removed from play" are placed in an out of play pile and are still considered for purposes of uniqueness. Cards "removed from the game" can be placed anywhere outside of the playing environment and no longer have any affect or interaction with the game.

Clarification:
Cards in the discard pile are never considered for purposes of uniqueness.
This clarification clears up any possible confusion remaining from Van's ruling in ICE Digest 581 that because a card is unique, only one copy can be played during a game (which we already know is not true in all cases).


Erratum:
Change:
CRF, Tournaments, The Character Draft wrote:Characters left over from the character pool may be placed either in the play deck, or
out of play, but may not be placed in the sideboard.
To:
CRF, Tournaments, The Character Draft wrote:Characters left over from the character pool may be placed either in the play deck, or
removed from the game, but may not be placed in the sideboard.

Erratum:
Change:
Balrog, Getting Ready to Play, Miscellaneous wrote:If you are a Balrog player, your opponent may not play any of the following cards:
The Balrog (Ally), The Black Council, Durin’s Bane, Balrog of Moria, Reluctant
Final Parting.
However, if at any time your opponent has one of these cards in his hand, he may
remove it from play and bring one card from his sideboard into his play deck.
To:
Balrog, Getting Ready to Play, Miscellaneous wrote:If you are a Balrog player, your opponent may not play any of the following cards:
The Balrog (Ally), The Black Council, Durin’s Bane, Balrog of Moria, Reluctant
Final Parting.
However, if at any time your opponent has one of these cards in his hand, he may
remove it from the game and bring one card from his sideboard into his play deck.

Erratum:
Change:
Dragons, Manifestations of Dragons wrote:If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the game:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from the game.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.
To:
Dragons, Manifestations of Dragons wrote:If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from play:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from play.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.

If the above proposal is passed it means:

- No additional erratum on Strider is necessary.

- News of Doom and Favor of the Valar are unique only for deck construction purposes and may be played by both players once during a game (effectively overturning Van's ruling in ICE Digest # 581). The alternative to this would be to issue an additional erratum on both News and Valar that they are "removed from play" instead of "removed from the game." This would stay true to Van's ruling but would add additional errata on 2 more cards, and it is unclear if this is better or worse for game play.

Finally, the other viable option would be what DamienX207 suggested in the above linked thread, which is to consider "out of play" and "out of the game" as the same thing. This alternative certainly deserves consideration also, but for the sake of having a proposal submitted, I chose what seemed the more direct path in my mind.

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Konrad Klar
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Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Removed from the Game & Removed from Play

Post by Konrad Klar »

I suggest including in the package a one more thing.
Dragons, Manifestations of Dragons wrote:If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the game:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from the
game.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.
changed to

If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the play:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from the
play.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Jose-san
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:22 pm
Location: Valencia, Spain

Re: Removed from the Game & Removed from Play

Post by Jose-san »

I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to translate this xD

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Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3276
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Removed from the Game & Removed from Play

Post by Konrad Klar »

I suggest including the following (changed The Dragon's rule):

If at any time an
attack from a manifestation of a unique Dragon is defeated or if the manifestation is
otherwise removed from the play:
• All existing manifestations in play of the same Dragon are removed from the
play.
• No further manifestations of the same Dragon may be played.
• The Dragon’s lair no longer has an automatic-attack.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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the JabberwocK
Council Chairman
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Removed from the Game & Removed from Play

Post by the JabberwocK »

Thank you Konrad. I have added the Dragon rule to my proposal above in my original post.

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