When a company is at a site

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:07 am

dirhaval wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:05 am
About Hall of Fire, what about the situation when multiple havens are in play as with bringing a character into play with an untap haven copy
and the other company has a tapped haven with Hall of Fire? Seems that if the copy with the resource is discarded then does not the resource also get discarded?
CRF, Rulings by Term, Haven wrote:If two companies join at a Haven, cards played on the discarded version of the Haven
transfer to the version of the Haven that stays in play.
If to take it strictly, it is another meaningless rule. Haven site cards are never discarded, they are returned to location deck.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

dirhaval
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:39 am

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by dirhaval » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:31 am

Here is Annotation 25a, which I feel handles what can happen once the site of origin has left the scene.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=655

User avatar
Thorsten the Traveller
Council Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:21 pm

The Jabberwock wrote: Now all 3 of your companies must return to their sites of origin (because they are all technically still moving if they have not yet arrived at their sites at the end of each of their own M/H phases)
That's not how it works. Snowstorm creates the passive condition which is checked for a company during their movement/hazard phase. Or is a company moving with Farmer Maggot during their site phase affected by Snowstorm? And either way, can you point me where it is said that a company that is not AT the site (until the site phase) is THUS moving?

See my Sam Gamgee example :wink:
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:02 pm

Snowstorm creates the passive condition which is checked for a company during their movement/hazard phase.
Why? (Though ICE never bothered to define what actually constitutes "movement," so the situation is sticky.) What about Snowstorm would only make it apply during the movement/hazard phase?

Farmer Maggot provides movement without a site path, so I don't think Snowstorm would apply.

Just for fun:
MELE Glossary wrote:Current Site: The site card showing a non-moving company's location. A moving company has no current site from the moment its new site is revealed until its site of origin is removed.
I think a good definition of a moving company is a company that does not have a current site card.
MELE Glossary wrote:Moving Company: A company in the process of moving between a site of origin and new site. A company is moving during its movement/hazard phase from the time it reveals its new site until the site of origin is removed.
Unfortunately, the current site definition means that the company gets their current site as soon as they remove their old site. At that point, they're at the site. Unless "at the site" has some strange definition in the rules that I haven't found. Which makes not being at the site until the site phase impossible by their definitions and process descriptions.

And for those who feel that there is a difference between moving to a site and being at a site:
If you move The One Ring to Mount Doom
:P :P :P
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:28 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:21 pm
Snowstorm creates the passive condition which is checked for a company during their movement/hazard phase
Snowstorm creates an action (return to a site of origin) that is activated by a passive condition (company moving trough [-me_wi-]).
The Way is Shut creates an action (return to a site of origin) that is activated by a passive condition (company moving to or from an Under-Deeps site).
Thorsten the Traveller wrote: And either way, can you point me where it is said that a company that is not AT the site (until the site phase) is THUS moving?
This may be deduced from Annotation 25: (that contradicts with statement "This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase. ", but is compatible with "Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/Darkhaven site may join at this time.") .

EDIT:
Corrected a misquote.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Theo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:28 am

I believe the second quote was also from Thorsten.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.

User avatar
Thorsten the Traveller
Council Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:32 am

Yep, that was my quote.
I introduced the Farmer Maggot example because it was the only instance I could think of where a company moves during the site phase.
Konrad wrote: This may be deduced from Annotation 25:
I disagree. There need not be a dualistic situation in which a company is either moving or at a site. Sometimes people are 'in limbo'. We're talking about a very limited timeframe between end of m/h phase and beginning of site phase, and the whole construct of 'end of m/h phase' is dubious as apparently various things can still simultaneously happen then, so in limbo seems to me the perfect discription of that situation.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:11 am

My apology for misquoting. I will edit the appropriate post.

You have asked "where it is said that a company that is not AT the site (until the site phase) is THUS moving".
In fact nowhere, because from Annotation 25 may be deduced that a company is at site slightly earlier than in site phase, THUS moving by slightly shorter period.

I understand your concept: a company in state "not at site and not moving". Which is dualistic in reverse way.
It would be acceptable if there will be a rest of infrastructure (i.e. when exactly and exactly under which conditions companies must/may join).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
rezwits
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:07 pm
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: When a company is at a site

Post by rezwits » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:02 pm

Thorsten the Traveller wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:07 am
The Jabberwock: It makes no sense that a company that has already completed its m/h phase is not at a site.
Frodo: It’s true that the arrival at a site during the site phase, rather than when one’s site disappears, is very unintuitive.
Haven given this some thought, I do not agree, on the issue of theme. The M/H phase indicates a state in which the company is or is not moving, and in which your opponent can play hazards. The fact that they only have their new site card at the end of the M/H phase does not therefore mean the company have arrived, merely that the phase of playing hazards is over. Thus their new site will not be subject to change. They might still, thematically speaking, be en route.

If this troubles you, just think of it as a state in which Sam is unpacking Bill the pony. They have arrived but are not ready yet to start cooking ;-)
#1, I 100% agree, ABSOLUTLEY, no confusion here on that

I only wanted to add, that there seems to be a problem with having a CLEAR interpretation of WHERE a company is AT, at all times.

I propose a simple explanation. That hopefully I can get approved some day:

First of all, let's define 3 places WHERE a company can be:

1. In region(s)
2. On the "porch" AT the Site, but not IN the site
3. In the site
--==--
A. Not Moving
B. Moving

So this follows:

Untap/Organization/Long Event Phase

They are =
2. On the porch
A. Not Moving

Then COMPANY #1's M/H phase (not the PLAYER'S M/H, I'll get into this later)

Once they turn over the new destination site:

They are =
1. In region(s)
B. Moving

Now don't get this twisted, because they can be in 1 to n regions, and going thru one, and then get lost and go back thru one etc, this need not be explicit to WHICH region they are in at this time, (Dreamcards might want to tho ;)

So now at the end of their M/H phase, their SITE of ORIGIN is removed and all that remain's is the Destination Site

To re-quote Took:
MELE Glossary wrote:Moving Company: A company in the process of moving between a site of origin and new site. A company is moving during its movement/hazard phase from the time it reveals its new site until the site of origin is removed.
A company’s Movement/Hazard Phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin
and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and
obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the Site Phase
or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company [CRF]

This DOES NOT mean they are AT THE site, they could be at a near by stream, getting water,
but the time to APPROACH (<- see the word Porch in there?) or even ENTER is not right.
But the HEAVY Lifting (i.e. serious STARTER/REGIONAL MOVEMENT) is done.

Now the ugly question is where is Company #1 during Company #2-n's M/H phase

To me:

Company #1 is =
1. In the destination region
(I am looking for what would be wrong with this pacification?) and then eventually get a RULE.
(because you cannont play hazards ON THEM, because they: are...)
A. Not Moving

Then COMPANY #2's M/H phase

Once they turn over the new destination site

They are =
1. In region(s)
B. Moving

etc...

When ALL Companies have finished THEIR M/H phases.
The Player's M/H phase is over.

NOW at the Begining of the Site Phase all companies are:

2. On the Porch
B. Not Moving

During the Site Phase they can KINDA MOVE by ENTERING the SIte (if they want to!):

making them

3. In the Site
B. Not Moving

During the EOT phase

2. On the porch
(this could be debated tho, and I have NOT given thought as to the IF they entered or not,
but currently I am under the assumption once the site phase is over they get out of that
"Horrible Place")
B. Not Moving

I WILL POST MORE LATER, if needed

to me the only things that NEED to be understood is

PHASE, WHERE, and STATUS...

If you don't like my "On the porch" terminology then go with my OLDER, In a TENT just 100 yards from the perimeter of the where the SITE exactly is argument. :wink: [-me_sh-]

p.s. I remember a time when the argument was, if they (during the site phase) are not IN the SITE, then where are they, that's why the:
on the porch or my old in a tent just nearby place.

My thing is THIS needs to be addresed for more clarity:

Image

p.s. medusa comments redacted, due to me being a smart ass :wink:
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

Post Reply

Return to “2018 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”