Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2018 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:02 pm
How would you explain Outpost?
Minimum one hazard must be moved from sideboard, or discard pile to play deck. If Doors of Night is in play then additional hazard may be so moved.
The hazards are not specified at declaration of Unexpected Outpost.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:56 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:02 pm
How would you explain Outpost?
Minimum one hazard must be moved from sideboard, or discard pile to play deck. If Doors of Night is in play then additional hazard may be so moved.
The hazards are not specified at declaration of Unexpected Outpost.
I agree.

But how would you explain that Outpost works without the mechanics of the game?

What are the actions created by Outpost?
What are the targets of the actions?
And what are any active conditions of the actions?


As best I can tell, Annotation 8 (the target of an action become the active conditions of it) does not apply when the target cannot be know at declaration:

Action of playing Outpost has no targets out active conditions
Action of moving 1st chosen hazard card targets the 1st hazard card but has no active conditions because the hazard is not chosen until resolution.
Action of moving 2nd chosen hazard card (if Doors is in play) targets the 2nd hazard card but has no active conditions because the hazard is not chosen until resolution.


I don't see how an action can occur without a target.
And I don't see how a players choice could be known before it resolved.
And I don't see how a target could be required at declaration (as an active condition per Annotation 8 ) if the target could not be specified until resolution (given the player's choice).

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
But how would you explain that Outpost works without the mechanics of the game?
No.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
What is the actions created by Outpost?
Moving of 1 hazard card from sideboard, or discard pile to play deck. Optionally moving an additional hazard card from sideboard or discard pile to play deck if Doors of Night is in play.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
What are the targets of the actions?
None.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
And what are any active conditions of the actions?
None.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
As best I can tell, Annotation 8 (the target of an action become the active conditions of it) does not apply when the target cannot be know at declaration:
Target of action is either known (and specified) at declaration or it does not exist.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
I don't see how an action can occur without a target.
I see. Nothing is specified at declaration of the action. In such case there is also no target of the action.
See Doors of Night, Gates of Morning, Dark Tryst.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
And I don't see how a players choice could be known before it resolved.
If the choise is part of main effect it is not known at declaration.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
And I don't see how a target could be required at declaration (as an active condition per Annotation 8 ) if the target could not be specified until resolution (given the player's choice).
Having a target and not specifing it at declaration of action mutually preclude each other. If anything is specified, but not at declaration of an action (e.g. it is chosen as part of main effect) it is not a target of the action.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pm
Target of action is either known (and specified) at declaration or it does not exist.

Nothing is specified at declaration of the action. In such case there is also no target of the action.
See Doors of Night, Gates of Morning, Dark Tryst.

Having a target and not specifing it at declaration of action mutually preclude each other. If anything is specified, but not at declaration of an action (e.g. it is chosen as part of main effect) it is not a target of the action.
Ok. So we disagree on whether the action of moving the card (e.g., in Smoke Rings, Outpost, etc) targets the card or not.

I disagree because I see no basis in the rules for the statement "target of action is either known (and specified) at declaration or it does not exist." What is the basis for this statement?

The closest rule to the statement that I can see is Annotation 8:
Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
First, Annotation 8 is a rule describing active conditions of actions. Each of Annotations 5-8 are in a section describing active conditions of actions and labeled "Actions and Active and Passive Conditions". Annotations 5-8 are NOT rules describing targets of actions. Instead, Annotations 1-4 ARE the rules describing the targets of actions. These annotations are in a different section of the Rule Annotations labeled "Targets." There is nothing in the Rules Annotations to suggest that the rules on Active Conditions override the rules on Targeting. The Rules Annotations state: "An action that is played out through one or more specific entities as stated on a card or in the rules is considered to "target" the entities." The action of moving of a particular card from your discard pile to your play deck is played out through that particular card, and therefore the card moved by Unexpected Outpost is a target of the card.

Second, these Annotations are not the entirety of the rules on the subject, they are annotations to the rules in the rulesbook ("RULES ANNOTATIONS - This section presents some annotations to various sections of the Starter and Standard Rules.") There are other rules specifically defining what a "target" is in the rulesbook:
MELE p. 91 wrote:Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action."
There is nothing in the Annotations on Active Conditions to suggest that they override this fundamental rule. Therefore, when Unexpected Outpost resolves, and the player searches their discard pile, chooses a particular hazard card, and moves the chosen hazard card to their play deck, the moving-to-play-deck-action is played out through the hazard card, making the hazard card a "target" of the moving action by the definition of "target."

The rules defining "targets" cannot be overridden by a rule defining active conditions, especially when reconciliation of the 2 rules is possible: Annotation 8 does not apply to targets that cannot be specified at declaration. In fact, it seems to only apply to targets that are "in play" as it makes the "in play" target an active condition. Targets that are not in play are not made to be active conditions by Annotation 8.

This is clear when I consider all of the rules together and consider the foundational mechanics of the game (actions, targets, active/passive conditions).

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Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:32 pm
I don't see how an action can occur without a target.
I see. Nothing is specified at declaration of the action. In such case there is also no target of the action.
See Doors of Night, Gates of Morning, Dark Tryst.
These cards include actions that have targets.

The actions of playing Doors of Night, Gates of Morning, Dark Tryst does not have any target (these cards are not "playable on" a particular entity).

Gates of Morning's effect "all environment hazard cards in play are immediately discarded" does not specify a particular target. However, this effect creates multiple actions, which do have targets.

"For each hazard card in play at resolution of Gates of Morning, discard target hazard card."

The action of moving a card from play to the discard pile (e.g., discarding) targets a particular hazard card. This target is not known at declaration of Gates of Morning. The target is determined at resolution. Therefore, Annotation 8 does not apply to the play of Gates of Morning, just as it does not apply to the play of Smoke Rings or Unexpected Outpost.

The action of playing Dark Tryst has no target. The effect "Draw three cards" doesn't target any particular card (it can be considered to target the play deck if anything). However, the effect of "Draw three cards" includes 3 actions. 3 separate actions of moving the top card of the play deck to your hand. These actions target the card as the moving action is played out through the card.

EVEN at resolution of Dark Tryst, it is not known what the card-type of the drawn card actually is.

However, there is the rule that "A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card."

If we put this rule into the mechanics of the game, it can be understood to mean: "You may not declare an action of a minion resource card that targets a hero site card or a hero resource card. And you may not resolve an action of a minion resource card that targets a hero site card or a hero resource card."

Dark Tryst does not break this rule as the card type is not known at declaration or at resolution. It is only known AFTER the action resolves and the card is in your hand.

Cards moved by Smoke Rings are Outpost are revealed to the player when they search for their chosen cards. So the MEWH restriction applies. Dark Tryst does not include any searching by the player and so the MEWH restriction does not apply.

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