BALLOT ITEM # 36: Old Road {erratum}

Cast your votes here for the 2018 Annual Rules Vote.
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Are you in favor of issuing the erratum described below?

Poll ended at Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:01 am

YES
45
85%
NO
8
15%
 
Total votes: 53

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Thorsten the Traveller
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BALLOT ITEM # 36: Old Road {erratum}

Post by Thorsten the Traveller »

INFORMATION
Old Road:
Allows a character at a Haven [ [-me_ha-] ] to attempt to bring a faction into play. The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card). The influence check for this attempt is modified by -1 and is not modified by the influencing character's direct influence.
The central issue is one of timing, when can Old Road be played?
But the wider issue is clarity about which conditions for a normal attempt to play a faction are circumvented by Old Road. Is this considered a normal influence attempt (with the exception of altered conditions on Old Road), or is it a special case alltogether?
That this is unclear is evident from the fact that several times the issue has been put to the NetRep (or similar institutions).
CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 11 wrote:
3. I can't find anything that tells me I can't use Old Road in the org phase, or even that it results in the Haven or the remote site tapping.
*** CRF Site Phase/General: "Items, factions and allies must be played during the site phase."
*** CRF Site Phase/General: "The site taps upon successful play of the resource that would tap it."
[...]
18. What are the site tapping rules with regards to Hour of Need and Old Road?
*** In Van Norton's old digests, 581 and 582, he says that both require an untapped site and will tap the site at which they are played."
This ruling was repeated in several later Rulings Digests ( #23, #47).

Though it was ruled thus, that Old Road is played during the site phase, and it taps the site (Haven) at which the faction is played successfully, discussions about other resource short-events and their issues with timing or implicit altering of normal playing conditions leave this card in an unclear state. Moreover, this ruling is considered contradictory (or inconsistent) with the MELE rules, stating:
...you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.
BALLOT ITEM # 36:
Are you in favor of issuing the following erratum?

OLD ROAD
Change This:
Allows a character at a Haven [ [-me_ha-] ] to attempt to bring a faction into play. The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card). The influence check for this attempt is modified by -1 and is not modified by the influencing character's direct influence.
To This:
Tap a character at a Haven [ [-me_ha-] ] during the site phase. The character makes an attempt to bring a faction into play (reveal the faction with the card). The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card). The influence check for this attempt is modified by -1 and is not modified by the influencing character's direct influence.
(relevant part bolded)


CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR VOTE:
If you vote YES, then it will be established that Old Road is playable only during the site phase at a Haven, and that Old Road does otherwise not circumvent any rules for making an influence attempt against a faction (other than those listed on the card).

If you vote NO, then Old Road will remain unchanged. Debate and ambiguity will remain, and it could be maintained that Old Road can be played at any time.

REFERENCE TOPICS: viewtopic.php?f=143&t=3331
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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CDavis7M
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Re: BALLOT ITEM # 36: Old Road {erratum}

Post by CDavis7M »

Old Road has been discussed by the ICE Netreps numerous times but only a few cases were mentioned? I mean, at least they were mentioned... But the other ICE rulings should have been mentioned, especially Ichabod's since he really knew what he was doing whereas Van was OK.
ICE wrote:From: ich...@spamblock.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 27
Date: 1998/01/04
>These questions regard the card "Old Road":
>
>If the influence attempt is successful, does the site at which the faction can
>normally be played become tapped? I think the answer would be yes, but became
>confused by looking at "Here, There or Yonder" (a somewhat similar card, but
>instead affecting allies), which has card text that specifically states that
>if the attempt is successful, the site becomes tapped, while "Old Road" does
>not.

Here there and Yonder is referring to the site it is played at, not the
site that the ally comes from. Factions played with Old Road will tap
the site Old Road is played at, but not the site where the faction
comes from.

>Also, if the influence attempt is not successful, is the faction discarded?
>Again, I think the answer is yes, but was confused by "Hour of Need" (an even
>more similar card), which specifically states that an unsuccessful attempt
>discards the faction, while "Old Road" makes no such mention.

Yes, the faction is discarded. In general, if a card does not say the rules
change, then they don't.
Some cards remind you that the rules don't change,
but that doesn't mean that cards without such reminders don't change the
rules.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien www.cstone.net/~ichabod/
Assistant Editor, ICE Me:CCG Official Netrep
"Home isa where you hanga your hat!" -Dr. Emilio Lizardo
-------- To email me, remove spamblock from the reply adress --------
The rules state: "If one of your characters is at the site specified on a faction card, he may tap during the site phase to attempt an influence check in order to play the faction card."

Old Road states: "Allows a character at a Haven to attempt to bring a faction into play. The length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played must be two or less (this must be verified by an available site card)."

So in combination: "If one of your characters at a haven and the length of the site path from this Haven to the site at which the faction can be played is be two or less, he may tap during the site phase to attempt an influence check in order to play the faction card."

The normal rules apply unless they are specifically overridden by the card effect. It's really that simple.
Thorsten the Traveller wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 1:55 pm Moreover, this ruling is considered contradictory (or inconsistent) with the MELE rules, stating:
...you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves.
Except for the rule that "A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site." (MELE, p.42)
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