Non-minion agents as creatures

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Theo
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Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:48 am

Currently:
CRF wrote:The following count as 1/2 a creature for deck construction: hazards that can be played as creatures or events, At Home Dragon manifestations, Ahunt Dragon manifestations, and agents. Note that agents count as characters in Ringwraith decks, not as 1/2 creatures.
I think the generality of all agents for all Ringwraith decks (and only Ringwraith decks) was an oversight, not meant to overrule previous specificity, and instead propose what I think the intent of this was meant to be (change underlined):
CRF wrote:The following count as 1/2 a creature for deck construction: hazards that can be played as creatures or events, At Home Dragon manifestations, Ahunt Dragon manifestations, and agents included in deck as hazards. Note that minion agents always count as characters in non-Balrog Ringwraith decks (and thus Fallen-Wizard decks), not as 1/2 creatures.


Based on (underline as my emphasis):
MELE wrote:Minion agents included in a Ringwraith’s deck count as characters for the purposes of meeting deck requirements. However, during play, each minion agent may be played as either a character (i.e., as a minion character) or as a hazard (i.e., as an agent).
METB: Your Starting Company, Play Deck, and Sideboard wrote:Your starting company and play deck (and your sideboard) may be constructed like any other Ringwraith’s - with the following exceptions:
...
* Agents count as hazards, not as characters.
CRF wrote:Fallen-wizards use minion rules for agents, except where specified by the White Hand rules insert.
---

To be fair, the specificity is lacking elsewhere in the original, so I think my opinion of the intent could be readily challenged:
MELE wrote:You must have at least 12 hazard creatures in your play deck. Several types of cards only count as half a creature for this purpose:
- A creature that is also playable as an event (e.g., Nazgûl, Mouth of Sauron, Shelob, etc.)
- A Dragon “Ahunt” or “At Home” manifestation
- An agent (Wizard player only)
So perhaps my proposal also should include the amendment to MELE:
- A minion agent (Wizard or Balrog players), or a non-minion agent (always)
--

If this proposal is not accepted, an additional implication is that it would be reasonable for players to argue that the two non-minion agents were granted character status by the CRF, and could be played as characters by non-Balrog minion/Fallen-wizard players. However, this would fall outside the given definitions of characters, further evidence for the current CRF language being an oversight:
MELE wrote:Minion characters have a rusted purple background while hero characters have a blue stone background.
[edited: added Konrad's additional clarifying clause to proposal]
[edited: clarified Balrog and Fallen-Wizard handling]
[edited: clarified second section based on Khamul's suggestion]
Last edited by Theo on Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:39 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:46 pm

My proposal:

"The following count as 1/2 a creature for deck construction: hazards that can be played as creatures or events, At Home Dragon manifestations, Ahunt Dragon manifestations, and agents included in deck as a hazards. Note that minion agents count as characters in Ringwraith decks, not as 1/2 creatures."

to assure compatibility with other formats of deck construction.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Theo
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:56 pm

Sounds good to me. Updating original.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by rezwits » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:21 am

Yeah, I am down with the Klar Proposal, thanks for the heads up to this thread, Konrad,
(re-directed from "My Precious notes" ).

Laters...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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CDavis7M
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:10 pm

Note, the CRF statement being discussed is found under CRF Tournament Rulings - Deck Construction.

This is a good idea. But my proposal uses the "non-minion agent" language used in the Dark Minions rules insteat of "agents included in deck as a hazards."
Dark Minions wrote:The two agents on the normal hazard template are “non-Minion agents”: My Precious and Lobelia Sackville Baggins.
The reason is that a player may include a minion-agent in their deck with the intention of using it as a hazard and not as a character. The phase "agents included in deck as a hazards" may be confusing to in that case.
Proposed Changes to CRF, Tournament Rulings, Deck Construction wrote:
  • Cards that can be played as either hazards or resources may count as either for purposes of deck construction.
  • Each deck must contain at least 12 creatures.
  • The following count as 1/2 a creature for deck construction: hazards that can be played as creatures or events, At Home Dragon manifestations, Ahunt Dragon manifestations, and non-minion agents. Note that all agents (minion and non-minion) count as 1/2 a creature for wizard players. See Dark Minions, Agents. Note that agents minion-agents count as characters in Ringwraith decks, not as 1/2 creatures.
  • Up to 3 copies of one Wizard or Ringwraith is allowed in a play deck, or up to 2 copies of one and 1 copy of another. One copy each of three different Wizards or Ringwraiths is not allowed.
  • You may place Ringwraiths or Wizards in your sideboard, as long as only one of them is duplicated in the deck and sideboard combined, and you have only Ringwraiths or only Wizards in the deck and sideboard combined.
  • You may include hero items in a Ringwraith deck even in a Ringwraith vs. Ringwraith game.
  • A Fallen-wizard may only count two Twilights as resources, the third must be counted as a hazard. The same goes for other hazards that may be played as resources.
  • The two starting minor items must be chosen before the character draft, and must be the same for every game in the tournament.

The original post also suggests amending MELE:
Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:48 am
To be fair, the specificity is lacking elsewhere in the original, so I think my opinion of the intent could be readily challenged:
MELE wrote:You must have at least 12 hazard creatures in your play deck. Several types of cards only count as half a creature for this purpose:
- A creature that is also playable as an event (e.g., Nazgûl, Mouth of Sauron, Shelob, etc.)
- A Dragon “Ahunt” or “At Home” manifestation
- An agent (Wizard player only)
So perhaps my proposal also should include the amendment to MELE:
- An agent (Wizard player only for minion agents)
However, this is not needed and the proposal is misleading. For wizard players, agents count as half a creature regardless of whether they are minion agents or non-minion agents.
Dark Minions p.4 wrote: AGENTS
An agent has the same attributes as a character: race, skills, direct influence, prowess, body, mind,
marshalling points, and special abilities. During play, each agent must be in one of the following states:
face-down and untapped, face-down and tapped, face-up and untapped, face-up and tapped, or face-up and
wounded.
An agent can be thought of as a hazard that acts as a creature with the following special effects:
  • It normally remains in play until it is eliminated.
  • If using the minimum number of creatures requirement (i.e., in the Council of Lórien tournament
    rules) for a starting play deck, each agent only counts as half a creature.
  • The total of the mind attributes of all of your agents in your play deck and sideboard may not
    exceed 36.

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Theo
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:26 pm

Added non-Balrog clause to proposal. Perhaps it should be a distinct proposal, but it aligns with thinking that the current CRF rule is full of oversights.
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:39 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:10 pm
The phase "agents included in deck as a hazards" may be confusing to in that case.
Appreciated, but your current framing the first "Note" is similarly confusing in that it is adding to the preceding list without saying that it is adding to the preceding list. The original Note seems to be intended to clarify this concern; I've made it even more explicit with an "always" above now (why not?).
Last edited by Theo on Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:44 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:10 pm
Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:48 am
So perhaps my proposal also should include the amendment to MELE:
- An agent (Wizard player only for minion agents)
However, this is not needed and the proposal is misleading. For wizard players, agents count as half a creature regardless of whether they are minion agents or non-minion agents.
I guess I'm forced to agree with the misleading claim by example. That Wizard players get this is, I agree, redundant. The point is that, for minion agents, only the Wizard (and Balrog) player gets to count them as half a creature.
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Khamul the Easterling
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:27 pm

Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:48 am
...

So perhaps my proposal also should include the amendment to MELE:
- An agent (Wizard player only for minion agents)
I'd (mis)understand this proposal in such a way that for Wizard Players only minion agents do count as 1/2 a creature, but non-minion agents would not.

That's why I'm asking for your opinion on this alternative:
- A non-minion agent
- Wizard player only: A minion-agent

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Theo
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:20 am

Yes, that seems better.
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:04 pm

Cheers!

One more thing to agree on:

Consequently, agents that do not count as 1/2 against the creature limit do count as characters, right? (They are not hazards counting 0 against the creature limit).

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Theo
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Theo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:34 am

Almost. For full disclosure, I probably should put this in the original post:

Under strict interpretation of current wording, agents for Balrog players would count as hazards but not 1/2 creature because the Balrog counts as a Ringwraith type player with additional rules.
METB: "Agents count as hazards, not as characters."
CRF: "Note that agents count as characters in Ringwraith decks, not as 1/2 creatures."

This thread's proposal would remove this obscurity, which seems both 1) plausibly unintentional; 2) overlooked by world-class players anyway, as the 2011 World Champion decklist illustrates.

(On the other hand, other world-class Fallen-wizard decks over the years have also mis-classified agents with high mind as 1/2 creature.)

The proposal implications are:
* non-minion agents always count as a hazard and 1/2 creature,
* minion agents always count as a character if it is possible for the player type to play any minion agents as a character (non-Balrog Ringwraith or Fallen Wizard), or as a hazard and 1/2 creature otherwise (Wizard and Balrog).
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Vastor Peredhil
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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:15 am

so what about

Treason of Isengard: Baugúr

Character: Agent

[MP: 1; Mind: 4; : 2; P/B: 4/8]---W---Orc. Unique. Half-orc. Agent. Leader. Discard on a body check result of 8. +2 against Orcs and Orc factions. Agent only: Cannot move to and . Home site: Isengard.


be aware he is the translated offical Germna promo Baugúr

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Re: Non-minion agents as creatures

Post by Khamul the Easterling » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:09 pm

Vastor Peredhil wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:15 am
so what about

Treason of Isengard: Baugúr
...
What, explicitly, is your question?

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