When a Company is at a Site

[Theo]

IF YOU are AT the Site, you can't do anything... (till the Site Phase).

This is a neat idea, but would have greater implications beyond A Chance Meeting. Marvels Told would be out. Nenya to help with a CC would be out.

Because then you could play certain cards and get effects before the site phase and without facing the automatic attack.

For the sake of discussion, would someone make a list cards that are of concern? And give some more reasoning for why, specifically, is it concerning that they can be played by a company during another company's movement/hazard phase. Perhaps the relevant additional rule should be that during any M/H phase only cards that directly effect that company or its entities can be played. Marvels Told to remove a Minions Stir would be fine; A Chance Meeting to bring in a sage to then play Marvels Told would not.

[Bandobras Took]

[humor]Let's take the autocratic approach. Nobody's at any site until I say so. I'll accept cash considerations.[/humor]

[CDavis7M]

A chance meeting requires a company to be at a site. Marvels Told does not (it just requires some sage to tap).

[CDavis7M]

This is a term I didn't see mentioned here or in any of the previous discussion.

Umbrella

No distinction exists because there is no "turn's movement/hazard phase." Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one turn.
. . .
The company is not at the site until their site phase. Just as there is no umbrella m/h phase, there is no umbrella site phase.

Just because a company is no longer "en route" to their site does not mean they are "at the site." At the very least we can tell this by the naming of the phases -- while a company is no longer "moving" at the end of the "movement phase" that does not mean that they can be "at the site" until the company's "site" phase.

Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there is no company, there is no site phase.

Of course, this is not clear from the original rules. But it is clear from the ICE Digests and from the Annotations 25, 25a, and 25b. Annotations 25a and 25b were added AFTER the MELE rulesbook was published. This is why there are discrepancies between the two.

Update: here are the updates to annotation 25 that were made after MELE was released since it seems no one mentioned them before:

• Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.
• Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
• Annotation 25b: Players drawing cards when a new site is revealed is synonymous with the resolution of the new site being revealed. It happens immediately, not in the following chain of effects.
  
  This is in the CRF too but I'm not sure when it was added:
  
• Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.

Yes, it is weird that a company has left their site of origin, stopped moving, but is not yet "at" their site. But this is just a construct of the game that lets a player have multiple companies doing different things.

Why is there a discrepancy with the rules? I think that issues with the rules arose at tournaments, some rulings were made to promote "fair play," and these rulings were put into the rules as Annotations AFTER MELE was released.. These Annotations are found in the "Companion" books. According to the Companion, an errata means the text is wrong and a clarification means the text is ambiguous. So these Annotations are neither errata (they do not change specific text in the rulesbook) nor are they clarifications (description of some specific text), but they are actually adding new additional statements to the rules (which can sometimes conflict with the original rules as we see).

So, these Annotations could be considered Errata because they actually DID change the rules. But I think that ICE wanted to pretend that they were not changes to the rules.


And there are many many more ICE Digests giving the same ruling again, and again, and again, and again.

>From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>
>1) I quote from CRF8(Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General):
>
>@ A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they
>have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an
>automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it,
>although cancelling does.
>
>Is this ruling meant to apply only to resources that must be played during
>the site phase or what?
It applies to anything done during the site phase.
>Or does it supersede, "Resource short-events and permanent-events can be
>played at any time during your turn --- as limited by specific card text."
>(CLARIFICATION top of p. 41 MELE rules); and, "Resource events generally do
>not require an untapped site nor that the automatic attack to (sic) be
>faced. This may vary based upon specific card text."
>(First paragraph p.42 MELE rules)?

Events don't generally require facing the automatic attack, because they
can be played outside the site phase. Try p.70: (Note - this is p. 70 in METW, or 94 in MELE)
"Site phase
"In the order you decide ... each of your companies at an untapped site
may:
"* do nothing *or*
"follow this procedure:
"1)You decide to enter and explore the site
"2)If the site has an automatic-attack, it attacks the company"

In article <PITZ.98Ma...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>,
pi...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Pitz ) wrote:
> In article <ichabod-2603...@dialin1115.cstone.net>
ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien) writes:
>
>
> You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the
> automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
> during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless
> it involves facing the automatic-attack. Therefore, you can't bring
> a character into play with WHCtK during the site phase if no one
> else is at the site, since you can never face the automatic-attack
> before doing so.
>
> The Rules say:
> "A company (!) may not play any resource during the site phase until they have
> faced all automatic-attacks"
>
> But there is no company!
> And We Have Come To Kill is not played by a company.

It does not matter. You may not play anything during a site phase, unless
the company whose site phase it is has entered the site and thus faced
the automatic-attack.
Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there
is no company, there is no site phase.

> This would include I cannot play, say a Gates of
> Morning, if I have faced at least one automatic attack at one site.

I think you mean 'if I have *not* faced at least one...' In that case
it is true. You must have faced an automatic attack to play Gates
of Morning during the site phase.

> So, I cannot play a Marvel's Told, which I had just drawn, to remove a Despair
> of The Heart because I don't want to make a corruption check when a character
> becomes wouded by the automatick attack?

Nope.

> So, I cannot play Dark Tryst in the site phase to draw more cards and to
decide
> after that if I will enter the site? (Can be nice while waiting at a dragon's
> lair if you're waiting for your hoard item).

Nope.

> Or, how about that:
>
> I have a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven. He enters the site (no auto), THEN "he"
> plays We Have Come To Kill.
> After that, the company (of one character) which has just come into play
> will face their automatick attack if they want to play something.

That only works if you bring the character into play at the site with
the Ringwraith. Since the character is joining a company, that company
must have faced the automatic attack that turn.

>4) Concerning "Vile Fumes", is the Gas attack which replaces the site's
>normal auto-attacks, itself considered an auto-attack?

Yes.

>Can VF be discarded for effect during the site phase before the normal
>auto-attack is faced?

No, it does not directly affect the automatic-attack.

From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>a) If a resource requires a certain site or site-type to be played it must
>be played during the Site Phase (unless its text says otherwise);

This is incorrect. An resource event only has to be played during the site
phase if the card says so.

>b) No resources can be played during the Site Phase (except to cancel/
>modify an attack) until all auto-attacks have been faced.

This is correct.

From: turin <tu...@primenet.com>
>We Have Come to Kill states that "a character may be brought into play
>under gi or di at any Shadowhold, Ruins or Border. Can you play this
>during the site phase at a site where none of your companies are? Can
>you even play it during your site phase?

You may not play it during the site phase at a site that does not
have one of your companies there. If you do have a company there,
you may play it during the site phase, *after* you face the automaticattack.

From: "Gary Devouges" <devo...@microtec.net>
> Can "A Chance Meeting" be used during the site phase ? The title suggests
>that a group goes to a site and by chance meet someone there ? Seems
>logical to me that it can be used during the site phase to bring the
>character in play at that site when we get there.

It can be used during the site phase, after facing the auto attack.

Craig Ichabod O'Brien Mar 26, 1998 12:00 AM
Posted in group: rec.games.trading-cards.misc
In article <PITZ.98Ma...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>,
pi...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Pitz ) wrote:
> In article <ichabod-2403...@dialin1110.cstone.net>
ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien) writes:
>
> > >Subject: Question about We Have Come to Kill
> >
> > > can this be used to bring in a character during the site phase
? >
> > Yes, if you have faced the automatic-attack.
> >
> > But if I bring a character (and the site) under general influence,
who will
> > face the automatick-attack?
>
> No one. Which means you can't do it. (I'm assuming you mean, bring him
> in under GI when there is no one there at the site)
>
> Exactly that's what I mean. But which rule contradicts that I cannot do that?
> The character I bring in will face the auto-attack when I want to play
> something at that site, that's clear.

You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the
automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless
it involves facing the automatic-attack. Therefore, you can't bring
a character into play with WHCtK during the site phase if no one
else is at the site, since you can never face the automatic-attack
before doing so.

> And, Mike Reynolds ruled it IS possible, at the World Championchip.
> Or have you revised that?

Yes. Mike only ruled that way because someone told him I had ruled that
way, which I certainly don't remember doing. If I did, I was wrong.

>In order to play ressource at the site, you have to enter the site.
>Does it apply to all ressources, or just the ones that tap the site ?

In order to do _anything_ during the site phase, you must enter the
site.

Oh!

From: "Paul Choquette" <mma...@vnet.net>
>So in a situation where your sage is say Celeborn and he's sitting at
>a non-haven and you have another comapny entering a different site..
>if Lure of Power were to pop up on the other company, does that mean
>that Celeborn would have to enter the site before he could Marvels
>Told it? If so, does this mean if he hadn't faced the auto attack
>BEFORE I started the site phase with the second company, that he
>COULDN'T play MT at the moment? Or, can you have him enter the site,
>face the autos, and play the MT, THEN resolve the LoP?

I would say that characters in another company cannot play anything
during the site phase. You would have to be in the company that the
Lure of Power is revealed in.

From: Vincent LEVOIR <vinc...@club-internet.fr>
>> From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>>
>> [play of hazards example snipped]
>>
>> >But for the movement/hazard phase of the next company during the same turn,
>> >the hazard player gets to choose to apply them in any order he wants,
>> >right?
>>
>> Correct. If they are both in play at the begining of the movement/hazard
>> phase, the hazard player chooses the order to apply them in.
>

>I disagree that, at it seems there is a mistake between a company's m/h
>phase and the turn's m/h phase (if such a distinction exists ?)

No distinction exists because there is no "turn's movement/hazard phase."
Every m/h phase is associated with a specific company, there is no
umbrella m/h phase that covers all of one player's m/h phases in one
turn.

>Suppose thre is a Reluctant Final Party (again this card) in play, and
>that you have some allies that are going to be discarded.
>As a company is not at its site until the site phase
>the allies are not in trouble until the site phase.
>
>Now, let suppose you draw a Marvels Told when resseting your hand after
>your first company moves. You can't play it yet, not until the m/h phase
>of your next company (no cards/actions/effect can be played/triggered
>between these phase, so I believe).
>
>But if you draw your Marvels Told when resseting for your last company,
>you can't play it until you have faced the auto-attack. By the time, the
>site phase would have begin, so your companies (and allies) will
>effectively be at their new site, so allies are discarded.

That is correct except for one thing: The company is not at the site
until their site phase. Just as there is no umbrella m/h phase, there
is no umbrella site phase. So, if you have multiple companies, one
without allies in danger could enter the site first, Marvels Told
the Reluctant Final Parting, and then the other could start their
site phase safely.

From: jst...@wallace.com
>1. Is it true that I can't play any Resources in the Site Phase
>unless I face the Auto-Attack?

Yes.

>2. Is it true that I can't play any Resources in the Site Phase
>until AFTER I fact the Auto-Attack, unless it modifies or affects
>that combat?

Yes. To be exact, you can't play it unless it cancels the attack,
cancels a strike, or is playable in the strike sequence.

>I travel to Moria with my only company. My opponent has
>Scimitars of Steel (Perm Event) and Awaken Minions (Long
>Event) in play. At the end of the Movement/Hazard Phase, I
>draw up to hand size and get Marvel's Told. (There is an
>untapped Sage in the company.)
>
>Is there any way I can get rid of either card with Marvel's Told
>so that I don't face 8 strikes @ 8 prowess?

Yes. During the strike sequence you could play Marvels Told to
discard Scimitars of Steel. You couldn't discard Awaken Minions,
since that would change the number of strikes after strikes
are assigned.
Note that this overrides what I said previously about not
being able to play Marvels Told during the strike sequence
at all.

From: "M. Sosa" <mso...@fiu.edu>
> Given you cannot play a resouce until facing the auto-attack (unless it
>spcecifically affects this auto attack).
> Given there is no "umbrella" M/H phase or site phase.
>
> Two companies, one at a Haven. Can the company at a Haven begin it's site
>phase first (no auto-attack) and MT or use that rooster card to cancel
>a perm event? Let's say this is a perm event that negatively affects the
>second company.

Yes. Once they have faced the automatic-attack, there are no more odd
rules about what resources may be played.

From: Chris Farrell <c_fa...@yahoo.com>
>- Bizzare Restriction #1 - the Site Phase: The problem is the
>prohibition against playing ANY resources in the site phase, not that
>strike sequences "run together" as I previously thought, which they in
>fact do not. Normally, you would in fact be allowed to play your
>Marvels Told (or whatever) any time during the combat, because there
>is in fact "time" to take any legal action (Turn Sequence Rulings,
>Strike Sequence, last bullet). HOWEVER, since there is this explicit
>prohibition against playing resources during the site phase until
>after the auto-attack is completed (Turn Sequence Rulings, Site Phase,
>4th bullet), normally and intuitively allowed combat activities are
>now disallowed (such as using And Forth he Hastened to untap to play a
>canceller - note that discarding Cram or Waybread to untap to use a
>canceller would by contrast be legal since it doesn't involve actually
>PLAYING a resource). Marvels Told, or for Minions, Freeze the Flesh,
>Well-Preserved, etc., may not be played. Period. Because they do not
>affect the automatic attack directly.

If you had been following the previous threads, you would realize that
the restriction on the site phase is: Before you have faced the
automatic-attack, you may only play card that cancel the attack,
cancel the strike, or are playable during the strike sequence.
If the play of Marvels Told affects the attack (as in discarding
a Scimitars of Steel) it can be played during the strike sequence.
Also, discarding a Cram is enacting a resource effect, and the
same restrictions apply to it as playing a resource.

From: "Microtec Mail" <devo...@microtec.net>
> This card is similar to Thorough Search but does not say that the
>automatic attack has to be faced. So my question is this: if on my second
>turn at the site, I play BotH, do I have to face the auto-attack again. If
>yes, why does the card not say so ?, why nothing in the CRF ?

The second turn at the site you have to face the automatic attack to play
anything. This is specifically stated in the CRF:
Site Phase
General
A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have
faced all automatic-attacks

From: Spen...@aol.com
>Ichabod said:
>"The company is not at the site until their site phase. Just as there is no
>umbrella m/h phase, ther is no umbrella site phase. So, if you have multiple
>companies, one without allies in danger could enter the site first, Marvels
>Told the Reluctant Final Parting, and then the other could start their site
>phase safely."
>
>Now I say:
>Isn't the company AT their new site at the END of their M/H phase (rather than
>at the BEGINNING of their site phase)?

No. CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General:
"Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand site are simultaneous
actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This
means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase."

>Basically all the above questions can be simplifyed to
> Must I face a site's automatic attack in order to be able to tap
>it?

Not necessarily, but all of the above must be played during the site
phase, and to do anything during the site phase you have to face the
automatic-attack.

From: Jordan Delong <jde...@azstarnet.com>
>Woah. What if I wanna play That Ain't No secret. This card doesn't tap
>the site, do I have to face the auto attacks?

Yes. To do anything during the site phase you have to face the auto.

>8) I seem to remember conflicting statements regarding when a moving
>company arrives at its destination site: end of its m/h phase or beginning
>of its site phase.

It is not considered at the site until the beginning of the site phase.


>Would a player with Elrond moving to Rivendell get the Elrond handsize
>boost when resolving handsize at the end of Elrond's m/h phase?

No.

---------------------------


Option #3 - A company which has completed its own m/h phase is not at a site until the beginning of the site phase, nor is the company still moving. They are in "limbo", or "camping outside the site", etc.

PRO - This option is defined in the Annotations and is how ICE has consistent ruled that the M/H phase and the Site phase works

CON - This interpretation is not clear from the original MELE or METW rulesbooks. You have to read the MELE Companion, or the Digests, or the CRF.

[Bandobras Took]

Interesting.

So Untimely Brood lets me play however many non-unique 1-mind allies I want, so long as I have the companies for them?

[CDavis7M]

One non-unique ally with a mind of 1 is playable at one or your tapped or untapped protected Wizardhavens each of your site phases.

Presumably 1 ally for 1 company under the ICE rulings. But it needs a protected wizardhaven, which then prevents the ally from being played normally. Sure, Rhosgobel is easy to get, but it has 1 SP. But maybe that is the point given FW Radagasts "mission."

There is another discussion on Untimely Brood for the 2019 ARV where I mentioned this, but that discussion is more about the potential of Untimely Brood to LIMIT playing more than 1 ally. Although, with this ICE ruling, maybe that is the case.

[Theo]

CON - This interpretation is not clear from the original MELE or METW rulesbooks.

More precisely, it is in explicit opposition to the original rulebooks, as stated previously.

Update: here are the updates to annotation 25 that were made after MELE was released since it seems no one mentioned them before:

The relevant updates were all mentioned previously. What the ICE DIgests say is allowed during a site phase is irrelevant for this topic. Your Denial of Service attacks (accidental or intentional) in this thread and elsewhere are in direct opposition to your previous claimed goals of reducing burden to community members.

I greatly appreciate the additional ICE Digests corroborating the second half of Annotation 25 addendum vs. everything else. It is convincing me that the wording wasn't accidentally too-narrowly focused on a player with only a single company.

[CDavis7M]

The wording in CRF is inconsistent with the METW Unlimited and MELE rules because the rules were changed in CRF 14 - "Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]." This change is reflected in the Challenge Deck Rulesbook released April 1998.

4 • MOVEMENT / HAZARD PHASE
Once all of your companies have resolved their movement/hazard phases, any two of your companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site combine (companies at Havens/Darkhavens may combine if they wish). Your companies are now considered to be at their new site (that is, the new site becomes its current site).
...
5 • SITE PHASE
Each of your companies has a site phase, and you may resolve them in any order you wish. In order to do anything during the site phase, you must first enter the site and then face any and all automatic-attacks listed on the site card (a character at his home site may tap to cancel one automatic-attack at his home site).

There is no time to take actions after resetting hand size for the last company's M/H phase and the beginning of the site phase process for the first chosen company.

[Theo]

I think it would be nice if this proposal also encapsulated when a company is said to have "reached" a site.

The roll required to move between adjacent Underdeeps sites is increased by 2. In addition, cancels the effect of Great Ship and Ford. May be played when an Underdeep site is revealed as a new site card (before the roll is made). Discard when any play deck is exhausted or when an Underdeeps site is reached from another Underdeeps site or at the end of the turn after Great Ship or Ford was played. Cannot be duplicated.

Is an Underdeeps site only reached when a company moving there transitions to being at the site, or maybe it is reached at the end of the company's M/H phase even though the company is not yet "at" the site?

[Konrad Klar]

Proposed rules:

"A company that moved in M/H phase is considered at site after completion its M/H phase, unless the company takes another M/H phase".

"If company is returned to its former site of origin after a site card representing the former site of origin leaved active play, the site card is returned to play in the orientation in which it was just before leaved active play."

"A new site is considered reached if after completion of its M/H phase a company that moved to the site is at the site or if the company takes another M/H phase in which the site counts as a site of origin."

[rezwits]

I went ahead and just broke down things very logically, and think the ARV should just let us all decide and Vote on:

Approach 1: Each company leaves their origin site indivdually, but they all arrive at the same time (i.e. the end of the M/H).
Approach 2: All companies leave their site of origin(s) at the same time, and arrive at the same time (i.e. the end of the M/H).
Approach 3: All companies leave their site of origin(s) at the same time, but arrive at their destination sites individually.
Approach 4: Each company leaves their origin site indivdually, and arrive at their destination sites individually.

There are so many arguments on all sides, somethings left out, I believe this covers the basics and options.

Yes there are the other EFFECTS of the game, but this must be solved, I believe before going further.

I am in favor of Approach 4!

This video below shows an example of the 4 options, involving the following cards:

Dead Marshes
Shagrat
Snaga
Sarn Gorwing
Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Carn Dûm
Dwar the Ringwraith
Dol Guldur

Thanks for watching!

Four Different Approaches for at the Site discussions

[Konrad Klar]

I am in favor of Approach 4!

Me too. Of course.

[bosquet]

Nice video. That helps a lot to understand. Thank you!

[CDavis7M]

I like the video

...
Approach 4: Each company leaves their origin site indivdually, and arrive at their destination sites individually.

I am in favor of Approach 4!

What is the purpose of this ARV proposal? Is it to identify the correct rule or is it to change the rules for better simulation purposes? The ICE rules did change over time but the rules are clear.

• Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
• Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.

The argument for Approach 4 is that it makes more sense from a simulation perspective. I don't disagree. However, the timing of each company having their own M/H phase is already contrived for gameplay purposes. And true simulation would have companies moving fewer regions arrive at their site before companies moving father, and companies that arrived sooner would untap and heal sooner.

The point is that the game has simulation problems. This has always been acknowledged. However, simulation problems shouldn't be fixed at the expense of gameplay. Especially since there are so many simulation problems that if we "fix" one of them, we would open our selves to "fixing" others.

In games, there is the simulation and the mechanics. The simulation may be off in this case, but the mechanics are consistent with the rest of the game. Now, we could go through and make lots of inconsistent and unbalanced rulings that improve the simulation, or we can try and give you a consistent and balanced game. We try to make the simulation as good as possible, but when push comes to shove, the game mechanics will win out.
------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod
ich...@cstone.net Me:CCG Official Netrep

ICE is aware that there are simulation problems in the game. However, to fix all of the small simulation problems in the game would require far more errata and rulings than we are willing to issue. Despite what many people continue to say, we ARE trying to keep the rulings
and errata to a minimum. We currently try to limit our rulings and errata to problems which affect mechanical issues in game play.
------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien www.cstone.net/~ichabod/
Assistant Editor, ICE Me:CCG Official Netrep

Yes, I said there are simulation problems with the game. I have always agreed that there are simulation problems with the game. But if you
start putting simulation over mechanics, you will not only make it impossible for anyone to understand, you will also make the game
no fun to play. Then it will die, as the players stop playing, and all you have left is collectors.
------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien www.cstone.net/~ichabod/
Assistant Editor, ICE Me:CCG Official Netrep

The problem is that there are resources (e.g., We Have Come to Kill, Return of the King, etc.) that are not "playable during the site phase" but that ARE playable when the company is "at the site." In the old METW days ICE had ruled that these cards could be played at the end of an individual company's M/H phase. As time went on, and especially after MELE was released, ICE decided that these resources were too abusive to be played after each individual M/H phase before facing the Automatic Attack in the site phase. So the rules were specifically changed with Annotation 25a and in the CRF.

ICE already tried Approach 4 and it didn't work. The description of Approach 4 doesn't mention Annotation 25a nor does it explain why the game should allow gameplay that was deemed abusive by the designers of the game.

[concerning automatic-attacks]
There need to be limits on resource play while facing automatic-attacks to prevent abuse of certain cards.

Question: The Rules say: "A company (!) may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks" But there is no company! And We Have Come To Kill is not played by a company.

Answer: You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless it involves facing the automatic-attack.
Answer: You may not play anything during a site phase, unless the company whose site phase it is has entered the site and thus facedthe automatic-attack.

The Challenge Deck rules were updated with many of the rules changes made after MELE was released. On p. 12 you can see that companies at the same site combine after all companies have resolved their M/H phases, and that all of the companies at considered to be "at the site" at the same time. Annotation 25a still holds as shown on p. 17 because in order to do anything you must face the automatic attacks. These Challenge Deck rules implement the ICE rulings. The rules are clear.

If people want to change the rules so that they can play We Have Come to Kill and get hand size bonuses during the Movement/Hazard phase, those topics should be discussed individually because the considerations are different--you can maintain hand size by delaying movement already.

[rezwits]

I would agree with what you said, but yes my exception is with Annotation 25a, like you said, the second part.

I would just suggest, when at the site "They are in 'Pre-Site-Phase". Meaning you can't play cards etc, but here is the thing, you (we) say no WhCtK, but people play Marvel's Told? So wtf?

Marvels Told

WhCtK

But my main issue is, Jabberwock and I talked on the phone about this, about 18 months ago, and the question was, are they at the site or not? And I think yes for all PURPOSES, they should be:

At the Origin (haven't left)
Moving (M/H)
At the Destination (when their INDIVIDUAL M/H is over)

Because the main issue was, which is clear to me know, "Look, if the 'Movement' is over, where ARE THEY?"

And like I said people love to play Voices of Malice or Marvels Told?? forget WhCtK, that's nothing!! haha