This is a prime example of
Rules Lawyering - interpreting the rulesbook as a series of individual rules having strict definitions and requirements
without considering the entirety of the rules, the possibility that the statement might merely be descriptive or explanatory, the audience of the rulesbook, and the developer's intention.
Rules Lawyering may be a valid interpretation of the rules for
some games but it is
NOT VALID for this game. In some games you may know that the designer is a Rules Lawyer himself. Many modern games lean this way. In other games you may not know whether the designer is a Rules Lawyer or not. There NO indication in MECCG history that Coleman Charlton was a
Rules Lawyer. Quite the opposite, we have several indications that Charlton was NOT a Rules Lawyer. He expressly disliked Cheezy plays (discovering loopholes in sloppy rules and card text to achieve results unintended by the designers). And (quite unlike some people here) he was not concerned with the minutia of rules and card interactions or proclaiming rulings.
Coleman Charlton was not a Rules Lawyer.
No one I play with interprets the rules as a
Rules Lawyer. But such interpretations are rampant on this forum and they are make it difficult for a new player (like myself) to decipher how the game is actually played by real players vs what the rules lawyers are nitpicking on the internet. Overtime the normal players stopped posted (why bother rehashing the same rules we have known for 20 years just to entertain the Rules Lawyers?). And I wouldn't bother spending my time to write this whole post if I didn't have so much of my time wasted by so much needless Rules Lawyering as I was trying to learn the rules to this game. At some point I'll put this into a new post for other beginners so hopefully they don't waste as much time as I did.
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Let's step back for one minute and consider
WHY the rulesbook was written in the first place,
WHO was intended to read it, and
HOW it was intended to be used.
WHY - presumably all rulesbooks are written to describe the game play, explain how the mechanics of the game work, and describe the interactions of the different mechanics.
WHO - presumably gamers and non-gamers, including kids in highschool, etc. were all considered as the audience for the rulesbook. The METW rulesbook even includes statements directed to non-CCG gamers.
HOW - it was intended to be used to learn the game and used as a reference when playing the game. Unlike laws, rulesbooks are not lists of restrictions to be deciphered. Rulesbooks obvious contain rules but they also simply describe the game.
Given all of these considerations, maybe (just maybe!!!) the rules might have a SIMPLE explanation that covers these statements on "Ringwraith only rules" and the Balrog statement on influencing that are supposedly "rules" alone and in themselves.
Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm
These are not internally consistent if Wizards use Ringwraith-only rules, which is what they would be doing if they applied standard modifications based on factions already in play.
Consider for a moment that the bulleted "ringwraith only rules" are not actually rules that may strictly ONLY be used by a Ringwraith (and not a wizard). As explained in the "Starter" section of the MELE rules, the bullets indicate RULES DIFFERENCES compared to the METW rules. The stated purpose of the bullets is so that "experienced players of METW can examine these passages and proceed with playing." Now, of course the MELE WITH METW section calls the bulleted section "Ringwraith only rules" but I'll present a hypothetical and given a simple explanation for this statement.
Let's considered a hypothetical situation 20 years ago where two highschool kids want to play Middle Earth. These two players want to play together, but one only have METW cards while the other has MELE cards. Luckily the MELE rules contain an entire section (Part IV) on "USING MELE WITH METW." Oh boy! This will be fun! Oh, but look "do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things--passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar." "Ahh," says the Wizard. "That is good to know - I will be sure not to confuse myself by reading those bulleted passages."
These 2 players are relatively new to the game and so
they decide to play with the STARTER RULES. The players being the game and at some point in their turns they want to play faction cards and so the consult the MELE rulesbook they have available. There is the bulleted ("Ringwraith only") rule regarding Standard Modifications in the Starter Rules on p. 39. "Most faction cards list some 'standard modifications' to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players." The Wizard player sees this and think "oh yes, of course this is a 'ringwraith only' rule because MY faction cards from METW do NOT list standard modifications based on the factions already in play. Instead they list the race. Duh!" So this rule only applies to Ringwraiths. Clearly the WIzard playing his own METW factions, that don't list other factions, do not get any bouses based on factions in play. Thus, standard modifications based on factions in play normally only apply to a Ringwraith player. And in the STARTER RULES (where this rule is found), you cannot influence an opponent's factions (which is in the STANDARD RULES) and so when playing the Starter Rules, only a Ringwraith will ever used modifications based on factions in play.
A few weeks later the two players want to play again.
They decide to use the STANDARD RULES now because they are very knowledgeable on the rules. The Wizard player wants to be fancy and influence away the Ringwraith's factions. He consults the rulesbook in the STANDARD rules on page 65 of the MELE rules book. (not-bulleted) "The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (
as given on the faction's card)." Just to be sure he digs out his METW rules book and looks at p. 60 in the Standard Rules and the rule is almost exactly the same. "OK" the wizard player thinks, "So when a Ringwraith player normally plays a faction, he gets bonuses/penalties based on the other factions in play while a Wizard does not normally get this because regular old METW factions
do not have bonuses based on factions in play (they are based on Race instead). HOWEVER, when you influence an opponent's faction, the wizard DOES get the bonuses/penalties AS GIVEN ON THE FACTION'S CARD." However, it doesn't seem fair to given wizards bonuses based on a ringwraiths factions. Oh! Well good thing the developers thought of this, and so in Part IV USING MELE WITH METW we have the rule "All influence checks are modified by -5; i.e., its harder for evil characters to influence the Free Peoples and vice versa" on page 85.
All of these rules above are from multiple different sections titled "9 · INFLUENCE", they are just found in the Starter Rules (the bulleted rules on standard modifications), the Standard Rules (for influencing opponents factions), and the MELE WITH METW section (for the -5 modifier). All of these rules apply and all of them are consistent with each other,.
The bullets do not mean that a Wizard may NEVER use standard modifications based on factions in play, the simply indication that wizard's do not normally get modifications based on factions in play because their faction cards don't provide standard modifications as such (instead they are based on race).
This is not a "wizard using ringwraith only rules." This is a wizard using rules that normally apply to ringwraiths playing normal factions in the special case where the wizard player is influencing a faction played by a ringwraith player. And this special case is defined in the Standard Rules and it is not bulleted.
Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm
As mentioned, the Balrog rules summary does not divide resources into hero/minion. It specifically says that "Characters in Wizard decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions."
It later goes on to say that you add "any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)".
This is not a NEW RULE. It is merely a
DESCRIPTION of how the game normally proceeds when simply playing factions (not when influencing an opponents). Hero characters normally get standard modifications for their race simply by virtue of the fact that hero factions list races and not other factions in play. Minion characters normally get standard modifications based on the other factions in play by virtue of minion factions listing standard modifications based on other factions in play.
Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm
A far more consistent and simple approach that requires no contortion is:
If a hero character is making an influence attempt, applicable standard modifications are those based on the race of the influencer.
If a minion character is making an influence attempt, applicable standard modifications are those based on the presence of factions in play.
Any other standard modifications list their own conditions.
Do not confuse modifications with standard modifications.
Except this approach
explicitly goes against the rules for influencing an opponent's faction given in the Standard METW rules on p. 60 and the Standard MELE Rules on p. 65 which state that "the influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (
as given on the faction's card). (METW says "'standard modifications'" instead of just "modification").
You never explained why you think that this STANDARD rule should be overridden by the bulleted STARTER rule or the Balrog SUMMARY.
Step back and consider the the statement in the Balrog rules summary might simply be a description on how the game is played and that the "ringwraith only" rules in the MELE with MELE rules might simply be indicating TO A WIZARD PLAYER that those rules don't normally apply to them (not necessarily that those rules never apply when other rules clearly indicate otherwise).
The rules are actually fairly simple and direct. The problem is that they are formatted to allow for both starter and standard rules. And they are long. Almost 100 pages. It is hard to keep all of that together as context. Especially adding the individual card text and CRF on top of it. Still, a simple explanation can work most of the time and it certainly can work here for standard modifications.
But feel free to Rules Lawyer this post by quoting single sentences out of context and quoting rules out of context to explain how my statements are wrong out without explaining how it has any bearing on my conclusion regarding standard modifications.