When a Company is at a Site

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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the Jabberwock
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When a Company is at a Site

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:27 pm

This debated rules dispute ended in a dead tie with the 2018 ARV. See results here: viewtopic.php?f=144&t=3380

As such, I am recommending this topic be considered again for inclusion on the 2019 ARV ballot. I feel additional research and education will be needed in order for voting constituents to make an informed decision on how they wish to vote. A sampling of educational scenarios or pros and cons for each side will be necessary.

The previous discussion thread can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=143&t=3348

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by the Jabberwock » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:03 am

As Frodo pointed out in the discussion thread linked above, a deeper study is needed to determine the effects on the game for each of the possible outcomes of this vote.

I see three options as potential candidates to be voted on. I am listing them below along with some Pros and Cons for each. It's perhaps debatable and subjective as to which points are "pros" and which are "cons" so I'm listing them all together and each player can decide for himself.

Option #1 - A company is at a site immediately upon its own movement-hazard phase ending.
PROS & CONS
- This company would not be vulnerable to Snowstorm (and other similar effects) which are played on subsequent moving companies during the same turn after this company has already completed its own m/h phase.
- The resource player would be able to play events which require a company to be at a site (so long as the events are not restricted to the site phase) during a different company's movement/hazard phase (e.g. Company #1 plays A Chance Meeting during the m/h phase for Company #2 before hand size is reconciled.)
- A company which contains a character who gets a hand size bonus for being at a site would be able to benefit from additional card draw during the end of m/h phases for subsequent companies moving that turn. (e.g. Company #1 contains Galadriel and moves to Lorien. As the final step in Company #1's m/h phase, its controlling player removes the site of origin and settles hand size normally. Company #2 now moves to Barrow Downs. As the final step in Company #2's m/h phase, its controlling player removes the site of origin and settles hand size, while drawing an extra card for Galadriel who is now at Lorien.)

Option #2 - A moving company is not at a site until the beginning of the site phase, thus they are still moving.
PROS & CONS
- This company would be effected by Snowstorm (and other similar effects) which are played on subsequent moving companies during the same turn after this company has already completed its own m/h phase.
- The resource player would not be able to play events which require a company to be at a site (so long as the events are not restricted to the site phase) during a different company's movement/hazard phase (e.g. Company #1 plays A Chance Meeting during the m/h phase for Company #2 before hand size is reconciled.)
- Moving characters who give a hand size bonus for being at a specific site will not give the bonus until the site phase.

Option #3 - A company which has completed its own m/h phase is not at a site until the beginning of the site phase, nor is the company still moving. They are in "limbo", or "camping outside the site", etc.
PROS & CONS
- This company would not be effected by Snowstorm (and other similar effects) which are played on subsequent moving companies during the same turn after this company has already completed its own m/h phase.
- The resource player would not be able to play events which require a company to be at a site (so long as the events are not restricted to the site phase) during a different company's movement/hazard phase (e.g. Company #1 plays A Chance Meeting during the m/h phase for Company #2 before hand size is reconciled.)
- Moving characters who give a hand size bonus for being at a specific site will not give the bonus until the site phase.


I will continue to add to the above list of Pros and Cons as I am able. Please post in this topic with your own suggested Pros and Cons and I will add them to the list I have started. Thanks!

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Theo
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:11 am

An additional reference that I don't think came up last year:
MELE Full Player Turn Summary wrote:Movement/Hazard Phase
Follow this procedure for each of your companies. Each company has a separate movement/hazard phase. You decide which of your companies goes first, second, etc.:
...
5) Remove the company’s site of origin (i.e., the site the company came from). Discard the site card if it is tapped and not a Darkhaven. Otherwise, return it to the location deck. At this point, the company is considered to have arrived at the new site (i.e., its new site becomes its current site).
...
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:29 am

Another reference I don't think came up last year:
CoE #43 wrote:So, according to ancient law (Annotation 25), you're "at" your new site
as soon as you ditch the old site card: "A company is considered to be
at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment
their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until
their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase.
During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites
and not at any site."

But several bullets underneath that (in M/H: General rulings) we have a
contradiction: "Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size
are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any
movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site
until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]"

*** This isn't a contradiction. The second above quoted ruling is a
clarification of the first. No companies are "at" their sites until the
site phase.
Although the claim that there isn't a contradiction just seems wrong. Maybe "at" with quotes is different than "at" without quotes? :roll:

Here it is again!
CoE #48 wrote:Being a minion, you have to go to Barad Dur with the ring and you win ?
thats all ?

*** That's it.
--------
And when exactly you win at the end of movement/hazard phase ?

*** Technically, it's when you're "at" the site, which isn't until the
beginning of the site phase.
Etc, etc. This NetRep clearly had his mind made up, at least.

[edit: added second quote]
Last edited by Theo on Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:43 am

On the other hand, if site cards are removed at the end of each M/H phase:
One company moves to the non-haven site of another company, but then company composition is illegal, the moving company is returned to its site of origin.
Since it's site card was already removed from being in play, and cards out of play do not hold orientation state, the returned site would be untapped? This does not seem intended. I almost think I've seen a rule specifically mentioning returning them back in the same orientation, but now I'm afraid I may have mixed it up with rules for FW replacing site alignments.
CoE #34 wrote:If I've read the rules correctly, haven cards (tapped or not) go back
to the site-pile when the company leaves the haven. I suppose they
don't remain tapped in the pile...?

*** No card remains tapped once it is removed from play.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:47 pm

Proposed rules:

"A company that moved in M/H phase is considered at site after completion its M/H phase, unless the company takes another M/H phase".

"If company is returned to its former site of origin after a site card representing the former site of origin leaved active play, the site card is returned to play in the orientation in which it was just before leaved active play"
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:37 pm

If the:
"A company that moved in M/H phase is considered at site after completion its M/H phase, unless the company takes another M/H phase".
would be accepted Hall of Fire would only require the clarification:

"Text of the card is able to overcome a restriction imposed by Annotation 25a, i.e. :

No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be
played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both
players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.

"

or

"Text of the card is able to overcome a restriction imposed by Annotation 25a, i.e. :

No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until beginning next a company's movement/hazard phase; for moving company this is at point when players have drawn cards for the movement.
"

(if proposed errata for Annotation 25a will successfully pass voting)
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:50 am

Hall of Fire should not get an exception. Immediately following should trigger as soon as it legally can, but not sooner. If the company starts another Movement/Hazard phase, there is no time for Hall of Fire to trigger before the company is moving (and not "at" a site) again.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:56 am

I think the it is such exception as The Reach of Ulmo is an exception.
Hall of Fire does not give a possibility that may be taken "at the end" of M/H phase. It gives possibility that may be taken "immediately following its movement/hazard phase" (compare it text of Healing of Nimrodel). At time when normally nothing may happen.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:53 pm

Yes, I amend my previous post. "Immediately" should trump normal rules timing restrictions. However it should do so consistently, not because Hall of Fire is special.

However, if there are two "immediately"s, only one can actually occur immediately. I don't think this should inherently stop the other "immediately" from happening, but it could indirectly stop an immediate effect from happening if the first immediate effect changes other conditions necessary.

If an effect already created a new movement/hazard phase immediately following the current movement/hazard phase, a new immediate effect triggering immediately following the movement/hazard phase (such as Hall of Fire effect) should not be able to be resolved until the first immediate effect is resolved.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:36 am

All depends on fact whether a text of card points at point of game in which normally some activity could not happen.
A word "immediately" is not necessary. The Reach of Ulmo achieves the effect without using it.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:20 pm

I'm not saying that "immediately" only allows trumping of normal timing restrictions. It also prevents other effects from being actively declared beforehand. The Reach of Ulmo utility would not be altered from any such prevention.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:30 pm

Theo wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:53 pm
If an effect already created a new movement/hazard phase immediately following the current movement/hazard phase, a new immediate effect triggering immediately following the movement/hazard phase (such as Hall of Fire effect) should not be able to be resolved until the first immediate effect is resolved.
If:
"A company that moved in M/H phase is considered at site after completion its M/H phase, unless the company takes another M/H phase".
would be accepted, such interaction would not happen.

If Bridge would be successfully played, a company would not be at Haven at any point.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:57 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:30 pm
If Bridge would be successfully played, a company would not be at Haven at any point.
The site moved to during a movement/hazard phase is adequately established for Bridge to work regardless.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:05 pm

I am sorry. I do not get your point.
Are there some errors in my proposals, that I do not see?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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