When a Company is at a Site

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Theo
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:38 pm

I think I previously misunderstood your point about Bridge. (I thought you were saying that Bridge could never allow an extra move.) I think I'm clear now.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by rezwits » Sun May 12, 2019 7:11 am

Theo wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:11 am
An additional reference that I don't think came up last year:
MELE Full Player Turn Summary wrote:Movement/Hazard Phase
Follow this procedure for each of your companies. Each company has a separate movement/hazard phase. You decide which of your companies goes first, second, etc.:
...
5) Remove the company’s site of origin (i.e., the site the company came from). Discard the site card if it is tapped and not a Darkhaven. Otherwise, return it to the location deck. At this point, the company is considered to have arrived at the new site (i.e., its new site becomes its current site).
...
MAN THEO!! NIIIICE QUOTE!
MELE Rulebook wrote:Movement/Hazard Phase
Follow this procedure for each of your companies. Each company has a separate movement/hazard phase. You decide which of your companies goes first, second, etc.:
1. If the company has a face down site card, turn it over (reveal it).
2. If the company is not moving, no cards are drawn. If the company is moving to a non-Darkhaven site, you may draw up to the number of cards indicated by the site that it is moving to (at least one card must be drawn); your opponent does the same. If the company is moving to a Darkhaven site, you may draw up to the number of cards indicated by the site that it is moving from (at least one card must be drawn); your opponent does the same.
3. Your opponent plays hazards on the company - each hazard is resolved as indicated in its text. Creatures are played and their combat resolved one at a time. A hazard may not be played if it targets a different company or a character, item, etc. in a different company. If the company is not moving, hazard creatures may only be keyed to the company's site of origin. Hazard creatures must be "keyed to" the moving company's site path and/or new site. If a creature is keyed to more than one region type and/or site type that applies, your opponent decides which one is used. The maximum number of hazards that may be played on a company during a given movement/hazard phase (i.e., the hazard limit) is equal to the size of the company or two, whichever is larger (Orc scouts count half, round up). The hazard limit is determined for each company at the beginning of the movement/hazard phase (e.g., it remains fixed).
4. If the company has been required to return to its site of origin, return the new site card to the location deck (or discard if it is a tapped non-Darkhaven) and proceed to step 6 (the site of origin becomes its current site). No additional hazards may be played on that company once this action is resolved.
5. Remove the company's site of origin (i.e., the site the company came from). Discard the site card if it is tapped and not a Darkhaven. Otherwise, return it to the location deck. At this point, the company is considered to have arrived at the new site (i.e., its new site becomes its site of origin).
6. You must discard any cards in excess of eight in your hand; your opponent does the same for his hand. If you have fewer than eight cards, you must draw cards until your hand has eight cards; your opponent does the same for his hand. Note: The number of cards you must keep in your hand can be increased by certain cards and abilities.
I am sorry but this solves SO MUCH for me, man I gotta read that MELE Handbook a few times, gees there is some good stuff in there.

This clearly states 3 things.

1. Each company has it's OWN Movement Hazard Phase.
2. After their (each "companies") movement hazard, if they haven't had to return, they are THERE, i.e AT the site.
3. Go to the next company, you pick the order.

Sorry for any agruments or confusion I have caused by NOT having READ this PASSAGE clearly!

PEACE (heh)
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by rezwits » Mon May 13, 2019 4:26 am

Oh now I find this:

♦ You are not “at” your site until the beginning of the Site Phase [CoE 43].
♦ Characters which give bonuses at certain sites will not give those bonuses until the Site Phase if they move to the site that turn [CoE 67].

@Theo, I thought you looked that up before posting the MELE Rulebook part, hmm DOH

But wait aren't we CoE? hehe what a joke...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by CDavis7M » Mon May 13, 2019 5:54 am

I think the idea for ruling that you are not "at" the site until the sitephase is to prevent bypassing automatic attacks. Most cards are clear in being limited to the site phase, but some others aren't. Like "A Chance Meeting" (though I still think that this should really an organization phase card). There is/was a whole debate on this. If you can ACM at the end of a M/H phase without entering the site, that is a big deal.

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Mon May 13, 2019 4:15 pm

rezwits wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:26 am
Oh now I find this:

♦ You are not “at” your site until the beginning of the Site Phase [CoE 43].
♦ Characters which give bonuses at certain sites will not give those bonuses until the Site Phase if they move to the site that turn [CoE 67].
My concern is that that netrep demonstrated that he did not understand the issues involved, so I'm not inclined to put much weight in his opinions.

Full text from CoE #43:
So, according to ancient law (Annotation 25), you're "at" your new site as soon as you ditch the old site card: "A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site."

But several bullets underneath that (in M/H: General rulings) we have a contradiction: "Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]"

*** This isn't a contradiction. The second above quoted ruling is a clarification of the first. No companies are "at" their sites until the site phase.
But the last underline portion clearly contradicts the first two underlined portions.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by CDavis7M » Mon May 13, 2019 4:20 pm

http://www.meccg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2999
in 2010, our friend Konrad stated "This problem is ignored for years." And here we are still. :lol:

I think the previous 2018 vote was not very helpful in making a decision because it didn't lay out the consequences. Personally, I am wondering when it really matters?
  • When are changes to hand size for being "at" a site (Elrond, Galadriel, etc.) effect? I thought that my group adjusts at the end of the same M/H. Does anyone play where hand size is not adjusted until the site phase? CoE 67 takes that line of reasoning.
  • 1st company moved in [-me_wi-]. Snowstorm is played on a 2nd company. My thought - 1st company stays at their current site and is not returned by snowstorm. This might also be decided based on Snowstorm's use of "moving" vs "not at a site." Potentially there is limbo between "moving" and "at a site."
  • Hall of Fire - "Any company at this Haven immediately following its movement/hazard phase may choose for one of its characters to untap or heal (from wounded to tapped)." Apparently this has been ruled to be effective at the site phase despite contradictory wording on the card itself (which would apply before a later company's M/H phase, potentially untapping a Sage to use Marvels Told, etc.). Note that "Healing of Nimrodel" only says "If the company moves to another Haven this turn, at the end of the movement/hazard phase..." without saying "at a haven."
  • Greed - "each character at the site must make a corruption check each time an item is played at the site." What if a 1st company moves to Rivendell and a 2nd Company (moving 2nd) stays at Rivendell. What if the 2nd company tests a ring and plays a ring during their M/H phase. Is testing a ring the same as "playing an item"? Does the 1st company make corruption checks? If Gandalf is in the 1st company, can he test a ring in the 2nd company? And during which M/H phase? Would this even work this way? This seems very unlikely anyway.

Personally, I think the BIGGEST issue is whether Elrond/Galadriel get their hand-size bonus at the end of the M/H phase or not.

CoE 67 says:
CoE 67 wrote:For Galadriel, let's say your hand size is 8 during the ORG phase. You
move to Lorien. After all hazards are played, you successfully Arrive at
Lorien, you remove your 'site of origin'. Then, you draw Your hand size.
In this case, it will be 9. End of MHP.
*** This is incorrect because Galadriel is not at Lorien until the
beginning of the site phase.
Is there actually any GAME-PLAY scenario to resolve here (beyond just making the rules themselves make sense)?

When can Galadriel moving to Lorien boost the hand size? Not until the site phase.
What about Snowstorm? It only affects "moving" companies.
What about Hall of Fire? It should have errata to read "at or moving to this haven" (if this is how people play). OR it should have errata to say "at the beginning of the site phase" instead of "immediately following its movement/hazard phase."
What about Greed? That scenario is a mess. But the 1st company would not make CC.


If we must say something about the rules themselves, I am in favor of the "limbo" idea discussed before, but I would prefer to call it "on the doorstep." Meaning, a company that has ended their M/H phase is no longer "moving," but is not "at the site" until the "site" phase (it is the phase of sites after all). Until then, they are merely "on the doorstep."

Still, I actually don't see much difference between having "limbo" and just letting the company be "at the site" at the end of their M/H phase (except for A Chance Meeting, which I think should be dealt with separately).

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by rezwits » Wed May 15, 2019 5:45 am

Theo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:15 pm
rezwits wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:26 am
Oh now I find this:

♦ You are not “at” your site until the beginning of the Site Phase [CoE 43].
♦ Characters which give bonuses at certain sites will not give those bonuses until the Site Phase if they move to the site that turn [CoE 67].
My concern is that that netrep demonstrated that he did not understand the issues involved, so I'm not inclined to put much weight in his opinions.

Full text from CoE #43:
So, according to ancient law (Annotation 25), you're "at" your new site as soon as you ditch the old site card: "A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site."

But several bullets underneath that (in M/H: General rulings) we have a contradiction: "Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase. [effective 11/17/97]"

*** This isn't a contradiction. The second above quoted ruling is a clarification of the first. No companies are "at" their sites until the site phase.
But the last underline portion clearly contradicts the first two underlined portions.
oh ok, cool, I gotcha, yeah it should be the way the MELE rulebook.

There are clear cut situations where 20+ years ago, some mistakes were made. PERIOD.

I get Chris' point too tho about the ACM WhcTK
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:47 am

Theo wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:43 am
On the other hand, if site cards are removed at the end of each M/H phase:
One company moves to the non-haven site of another company, but then company composition is illegal, the moving company is returned to its site of origin.
Since it's site card was already removed from being in play, and cards out of play do not hold orientation state, the returned site would be untapped? This does not seem intended. I almost think I've seen a rule specifically mentioning returning them back in the same orientation, but now I'm afraid I may have mixed it up with rules for FW replacing site alignments.
Here it is:
CoE Rulings Digest #125 wrote: 5)
If a company must return to its site of origin and that site card is no longer in play, it (or the resource card that acted as the site) must be returned back into play in the same orientation that it left. It does not matter where that site card is, it is returned even from out of play.
This is THE last CoE Rulings Digest, so in theory trumps anything before it. As far as I know, only company composition violations could cause a return of a company to its (previous) site of origin after the site has already been removed. Which brings me to another reference that didn't make it into last year's discussion:
CRF wrote:Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts.
So for this as well, companies must be at a site at least by the end of all movement/hazard phases. For this to happen, each needs to be at the site when their site card is removed at the end of their specific movement/hazard phases.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:53 am

Another "effect" is whether Ringwraith players will auto-win by bringing The One Ring to Barad-dur during the end of the bearer's movement/hazard phase or whether they must wait until the site phase.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by gollum51 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:16 am

Theo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:53 am
Another "effect" is whether Ringwraith players will auto-win by bringing The One Ring to Barad-dur during the end of the bearer's movement/hazard phase or whether they must wait until the site phase.
Good point Theo. Company A moves to Barad Dur with the one ring. Is the game won or is the ringbearer vulnerable to e.g. Ren played as a short event on company B?

The way I play it (which might be wrong but it works for me) is that you are only at the site at the start of the site phase (if you decide to face the AA) or in the end phase if site phase is skipped. So in the above example, ringbearer would indeed be vulnerable to Ren. The way I justify it to myself is that companies travel in reality in parallel, not one after another.

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Theo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:24 pm

gollum51 wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:16 am
The way I justify it to myself is that companies travel in reality in parallel, not one after another.
This has long been used as a justification, and for story reasons I wanted to believe in it at one point. But I can't get behind it at this point. Companies definitively start traveling at different times: e.g. company 1 gets a Snowstorm played on it and returns to site of origin, company 2 draws a Twilight from their movement and removes the Snowstorm to safely arrive. I have never seen this be questioned; why should different arrival times on the other side be less OK?
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by CDavis7M » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:32 am


Theo wrote:why should different arrival times on the other side be less OK?
Because then you could play certain cards and get effects before the site phase and without facing the automatic attack. Of course, we could just errata certain offenders. But which stay and which go?


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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by rezwits » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:01 pm

My whole contention, is:

Look, you're at the SITE, (at the end of the "Companies" M/H), but you can't do anything till the Site Phase anyway.

IF YOU are AT the Site, you can't do anything... (till the Site Phase).

So what's the complaint, and then it always comes back to Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan and such, get their +1 Hand Size Ability.

And this IS REALLY ALL the players who want the AT the Site WANT, desperately more than anything which IS WEAK!
That extra hand size over and over, they don't "really" care about when they get there etc
They just complain cause they want their Hand Size, so "Let's make a special rule for the Elven Lords" Bah!

The "You can't do anything" till the Site Phase should apply...

But whichever IDK, just END the MADNESS!! (I could see this conversation just like FW Palantir)

Hypothetical:

Q: Why aren't Companies actually at their Site, at the end of their M/H phase, like the MELE rules state?
A: This was changed to make Elf-lords less powerful...

Right RIght?? haha sick...
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by CDavis7M » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:17 pm

So, you're saying that the company should be "at" the site, but can't play any cards, but still gets the effects of being "at" the site from cards already in play?

...

Increased hand size is a reward to offset an elf lord staying put. There is no reason to provide this reward to other companies moving after the elf lord has returned to their Haven, having not stayed put.

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Re: When a Company is at a Site

Post by Shapeshifter » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:03 pm

I think rezwits is right here.

Let me explain my point of view:

- A company reached their new site and is considered at this site immediately after their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase (according to Annotation 25 as written on page 64 in The Lidless Eye Companion). This is ICE-law!
Note: The following addition to Annotation 25 from the CRF is missing on page 64 in The Lidless Eye Companion (is it still ICE-law?): “Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.
Please also note that there is an exception to the above if a company takes an additional movement/hazard phase. The wording in the rules does not really take such scenario into account! In this case it is probably “card over rules”.

- Due to Annotation 25a (as written on page 64 in The Lidless Eye Companion), however, it technically doesn’t matter if a company is at a site at the end of the movement/hazard phase or at the beginning of the site phase. This is because “No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
In the case of Hall of Fie this means for me that the untapping (resource) effect of the card thus applies immediately as soon as it is allowed, i.e. at the beginning of the site phase.
In the case of the +1 hand size for “Elflords” at their home site it is probably not that clear. Should this be considered a resource effect? I think yes, though characters are not resources but the +1 hand size effect written on their card should be a resource effect. Thus these effects are not activated until the site phase either.

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