Passive Conditions

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Konrad Klar
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Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

1.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition
. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
Not all passive conditions are produced inside of a chain of effects.
End of phase that may be passive condition never happens in chain of effects.
Some other passive conditions sometimes are produced inside of chain of effects, sometimes not. E.g. passive condition like a company moving through certain regions may be produced at the start of the company's M/H phase, before declaration of any action.
Passive Conditions does not say what then.

Proposed regulation:

If some a passive condition is produced not in chain of effects, then a new chain of effects is started and an action caused by the passive condition becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects.

2.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled.
Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
Some passive conditions are not a states (example of states: "some card is in play", "company is moving through certain regions") that may persist in play by some time. Some are an actions that happen momentarily (for example a becoming wounded - character may be in wounded state by some time, but if he becomes wounded at some point in some chain of effects, he will not still become wounded at declaration of action from Despair of Heart, nor at its resolution).

Proposed regulation:

If a passive condition is an action then it is not checked at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

3.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Passive Conditions wrote:A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled.
Phrase "the action is canceled" is confusing. Actually the action does not resolve.
"the action is canceled" may be certainly confusing if the action is an attack. Reader may be under impression that because "an attack has been canceled" the attack has been faced, and this may have an impact on playability of other card. Actually the attack just did not happen.

Proposed regulation:

Changing both occurrences of "the action is canceled" with "the action does not resolve".

Related thread:
Loopholes in Passive Condition Rules

All underlines mine.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Bandobras Took »

For 1, I would prefer:
If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in a chain of effects, which, if necessary, immediately follows the chain of effects producing the passive condition.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

It does not address the issue. Issue is how to deal with actions caused by a passive condition if some passive condition is produced not in chain of effects.
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

:oops:
I misread.
Accepted.
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by the JabberwocK »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Proposed regulation:

If some a passive condition is produced not in chain of effects, then a new chain of effects is started and an action caused by the passive condition becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects.
Will you please provide a specific gameplay example for this? First, how it would be handled under current rules. Second, how it would change with your proposal. Thanks.

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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

the Jabberwock wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:39 am
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Proposed regulation:

If some a passive condition is produced not in chain of effects, then a new chain of effects is started and an action caused by the passive condition becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects.
Will you please provide a specific gameplay example for this? First, how it would be handled under current rules. Second, how it would change with your proposal. Thanks.
Snowstorm is in play and company with Wilderness in its path starting its M/H phase.
This activates the action "return to the site of origin" outside of chain of effects (before anything has been declared).
Current rules do not provide any information about timing of the action. If situation: "Snowstorm is in play and company has Wilderness in its path" would happen in chain of effect, then "return to the site of origin" would be first action of next chain of effects.

Under my proposal the action would be first action of automatically created chain of effects.
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

Proposed regulations:

1.
If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in a chain of effects, which, if necessary, immediately follows the chain of effects producing the passive condition.

2.
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action has no effect. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
If a passive condition is an action then it is not checked at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

3.
Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific
passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the
chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive
condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in
its own chain of effects, or the action has no effect. Note that actions in the strike
sequence follow a different set of rules.
If a passive condition is an action then it is not checked at the resolution of action caused by the condition.

A card that states the an action happens as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action has no effect.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Not all passive conditions are produced inside of a chain of effects.
End of phase that may be passive condition never happens in chain of effects.
Some other passive conditions sometimes are produced inside of chain of effects, sometimes not. E.g. passive condition like a company moving through certain regions may be produced at the start of the company's M/H phase, before declaration of any action.
How can a passive condition ever happen if not in a chain of effects? Is it not an action? Aren't all actions resolved in a chain of effects? I would consider 1 single action being declared and resolved to still be a chain if effects.

Revealing a card is an action.

Revealing a site card is an action. This action may also be a passive condition. The revealing site card action can be a passive condition that triggers declaration of effects on a card played at the end of the organization phase. It can also be a passive condition that triggers a hazard in play.

Snowstorm is triggered from the movement of a company, the site-revealing action for a company IS the movement of the company. The revealing of the site card is declared and resolved in a chain of events as with any action. There is no gameplay reason to declare actions in response to the site revealing declaration. It makes sense to just wait and see what the site is at resolution.
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:41 pm
How can a passive condition ever happen if not in a chain of effects? Is it not an action?
Mostly the passive conditions are not actions.
Being at some site, for instance, is not an action.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:41 pm
Aren't all actions resolved in a chain of effects?
All resolved actions are resolved in a chain of effects.
Not all actions are declared/resolved.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:41 pm
Revealing a card is an action.

Revealing a site card is an action. This action may also be a passive condition.
Examples of an actions that are not declared/resolved.
Sometimes they may be a passive condition.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:41 pm
The revealing site card action can be a passive condition that triggers declaration of effects on a card played at the end of the organization phase.
Usually it does not matter when a card that creates an action activated by passive condition was played. Hypothetical text may check for it.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:41 pm
Snowstorm is triggered from the movement of a company, the site-revealing action for a company IS the movement of the company. The revealing of the site card is declared and resolved in a chain of events as with any action.
Action from Snowstorm may be triggered at the start of the movement of a company.
Did you ever seen something declared in response to revealing of the site card? Or maybe it is special chain of effects, where nothing may be declared in response?
At least in case of under-deeps movement a company is not moving immediately after revealing a new site and drawing the cards for movement.
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by CDavis7M »

Unfortunately, your interpretation of the rules creates many conflicts between the rules (this subforum as evidence)

My interpretation does not.

--------------
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:21 pm
Not all actions are declared/resolved.
That's incorrect. All actions are technically declared and resolved. But mostly it doesn't matter outside of the Movement/Hazard phase unless there is a dice roll.

Image

Any activity that affects the game is an action. This includes any changes to the positions of cards, any changes to the properties of cards, and any decision or choice made by the player that affects the game. Any activity is an action and all actions will be declared and resolved. At resolution, the effects happen, e.g., the card is moved, a property of a card is changed, or the player announces or indicates something.

Every action is technically declared and resolved. But outside of the Movement/Hazard phase, the declaration/resolution timing almost never matters unless there is a dice roll. And so declaration/resolution is never considered by the players, and the rules are long enough without describing nuances that don't matter. Imagine how much longer the rules would be and how many more statements could be misinterpreted by players.

But that doesn't mean that untapping a character in the untap phase is not an action and that is not declared and resolved. It technically IS an action and it IS declared and resolved in it's very own little chain of events. A player could technically declare something in response, but what would be the point?

You may pretend that declaration of untapping a character in the untap phase doesn't happen in a chain of effects because there is no impact on the game. Of course, you wouldn't want to pretend that the resolution of the character untapping didn't happen because then your character would never untap.

---------------
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:21 pm
Mostly the passive conditions are not actions.
I think you are misunderstanding what a passive condition is. A passive condition IS an action. ALL passive conditions are actions. There is nothing that is a passive condition that is not an action. But, of course, not all actions are passive conditions.

Image

A card may describe that ActionA can be triggered by ActionB if ActionB meets some criteria (sometimes there is no criteria beyond the action). This statement establishes what the passive condition is.

ActionB is called the "passive condition." It is an action. If ActionB resolves in ChainOfEffects1 and the criteria for ActionB is met (otherwise it would not be ActionB), this will trigger ActionA to be the first declared action in the ChainOfEffects2 that immediately follows ChainOfEffects1.

A favorite example is Rank Upon Rank and Ready to His Will.

Rank Upon Rank has a +1-strike-action. This is ActionB. It is the triggerable action. It is not the passive condition.

Rank Upon Rank states what the passive condition action (ActionA) is. The action that is the passive condition is the creation of an attack. Rank Upon Rank also sets the criteria for ActionA. It must be the creation of a non-agent Man attack. In most cases, such an attack will be created by the play of a creature. The action of playing the creature (or whatever other action created the attack) IS THE PASSIVE CONDITION (ActionA). This action creating the non-agent Man attack IS the passive condition. Only the creation (ActionA) of non-agent Man attacks will trigger the +1 strike action (ActionB).

The attack-creation-action is the passive condition. When the passive condition resolves in its chain of effects (ChainOfEffects1), then the +1 strike action is triggered as a result of the passive condition, and it will be the first action declared in the chain of effects (ChainOfEffects2) to immediately follow the chain of effects (ChainOfEffects1) producing the passive condition. ChainOfEffects1 produced the attack-creation-action that is the passive condition.

Then, Ready to His Will can be declared in ChainOfEffects2 and it will resolve before the +1 strike action of Rank Upon Rank because the +1 strike action MUST be declared first in ChainOfEffects2 according to the rules on passive conditions.

----------------
Did you ever seen something declared in response to revealing of the site card?
Behind the scenes, the action of revealing a new-site card is declared. There is no benefit to declaring something in response to this declaration. There are only drawbacks. Once the site-revealing-action is resolved, then the new-site is revealed. It only makes sense to wait until the card is revealed to declare anything.

Just because there is never a reason to declare something in response to a declaration of revealing a site doesn't mean that the declaration never happens behind the scenes.

We know that the action happens. The site is revealed. And revealing the site is a "site-revealing-action." And if there is resolution of a site-revealing action, there must have been some declaration of it.

It makes much more sense to have every action be declared and resolved (even if behind the scenes) than it does to pretend that some actions are never declared. Players do not need to worry about timing during the untap phase and the revealing of a site card as there is no impact on gameplay.

But pretending that declaration of actions never happens creates inconsistencies in the rules as you have shown.

-------------

You already read all of these sections together? I just don't see how you can draw the conclusion that actions don't need to be declared and that passive conditions are not actions.
  • MELE - Section 2 THE CARDS AND DECKS - KEYWORDS (p. 12)
  • MELE - Section 10 PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS - EVENTS (p. 40 and 41)
  • MELE - Section 10 PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS - ACTIONS AND CARD PLAY (p. 50, 69, and 70)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Action (p. 87)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Chain of Effects (p. 88)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Condition, Active (p. 88)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Condition, Passive (p. 88)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Declaring an Action (p. 88 and 89)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Keyword (p. 89)
  • MELE - GLOSSARY - Targeting (p. 89)
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Actions
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Active Conditions
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Passive Conditions
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Playing a Card
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Short Event
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Skill Cards
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Targets
  • CRF - Rulings by Term - Timing

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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:40 pm
Unfortunately, your interpretation of the rules creates many conflicts between the rules (this subforum as evidence)

My interpretation does not.
Bold claims.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:40 pm
Any activity that affects the game is an action. This includes any changes to the positions of cards, any changes to the properties of cards, and any decision or choice made by the player that affects the game. Any activity is an action and all actions will be declared and resolved. At resolution, the effects happen, e.g., the card is moved, a property of a card is changed, or the player announces or indicates something.
Are you able to be consistent with the text on the scan?
It requires a sanity better than mine.
Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions - they are declared and resolved immediately.
Tapping a sage to play Marvels Told is something that is "declared and resolved immediately" and at the same the sage must tap at declaration of MT and be tapped when MT resolves.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:40 pm
I think you are misunderstanding what a passive condition is. A passive condition IS an action. ALL passive conditions are actions. There is nothing that is a passive condition that is not an action. But, of course, not all actions are passive conditions.
CRF wrote:A passive condition causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play.
Of course you may not consider being at appropriate site as a passive condition of discard action from Reluctant Final Parting.
Because it does not match the definition you know.
Or you may consider being at appropriate site as an action.
To match the definition of passive condition you know.
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:42 pm
Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions - they are declared and resolved immediately.
Tapping a sage to play Marvels Told is something that is "declared and resolved immediately" and at the same the sage must tap at declaration of MT and be tapped when MT resolves.
The sage taps at declaration of the hazard-card-discarding action, not at the play of Marvels Told.

But what was the point to be made by discussing Marvels Told?
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:42 pm
CRF wrote:A passive condition causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play.
Yes, exactly. A passive condition does cause another action to happen. One action triggers another.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:42 pm
Of course you may not consider being at appropriate site as a passive condition of discard action from Reluctant Final Parting.
Because it does not match the definition you know.
Or you may consider being at appropriate site as an action.
To match the definition of passive condition you know.
Are you asking how Reluctant Final Parting can work if a company stays at their current site?

For "non-targeting" long and permanent events that are already in play, aren't the effects declared immediately when the movement/hazard phase starts (when the new site card revealed and cards are drawn OR when a company stays at the site and no site is revealed)? They just resolve when/where they apply. Even if sites aren't revealed and cards aren't drawn, starting a movement/hazard phase is still an activity of the game (an action). Plus, the CRF explains that these drawing cards and revealing the site at the start of the M/H phase are synonymous.

I would consider the start of the Movement/Hazard phase to be an action that can be a passive condition for triggering other effects.

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Re: Passive Conditions

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CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:09 pm
But what was the point to be made by discussing Marvels Told?
MELE wrote:Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions - they are declared and resolved immediately.
Underline mine.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:09 pm
Are you asking how Reluctant Final Parting can work if a company stays at their current site?
I'm even suspecting that it does not affect allies in moving companies.

I'm asking what is here, in your opinion, action caused by passive condition and what is a passive condition.
In my opinion the action is "discard ally", the passive condition is "ally is at appropriate site".
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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:46 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:09 pm
But what was the point to be made by discussing Marvels Told?
MELE wrote:Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions - they are declared and resolved immediately.
Underline mine.
Right. I understand this. But.... :?:
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:46 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:09 pm
Are you asking how Reluctant Final Parting can work if a company stays at their current site?
I'm even suspecting that it does not affect allies in moving companies.
I agree. If Reluctant Final Parting is played during the M/H phase and a company with an ally is moving to a site closer to that would trigger RFP, then RFP would not trigger until the site phase when the ally arrives at the site.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:46 am
I'm asking what is here, in your opinion, action caused by passive condition and what is a passive condition.
In my opinion the action is "discard ally", the passive condition is "ally is at appropriate site".
I agree, the discarding in RFP is the triggerable action and the action that triggers RFP's discarding the the ally being at a certain site. I would classify merely "being" at a site as an action. Either arriving at a site or staying at a site. I think its more consistent to define that a non-moving company takes the action of "moving" from current site to their same current site. The non-moving company still has a M/H phase after all, it is not skipped. There is still activity in the game. If you could decide for a company to not have a M/H phase at all, then I would not consider the skipped M/H phase to be activity.
CRF, Turn, M/H, general wrote:A non-moving company's current site is considered its new site for card play.
If a particular new site would be a passive condition triggering an action, why shouldn't the current site be the passive condition for a non-moving company?

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Re: Passive Conditions

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:46 pm
If a particular new site would be a passive condition triggering an action, why shouldn't the current site be the passive condition for a non-moving company?
I do not known.
I do not known a card that creates action activated by particular new site.
I known the card that creates at given point an action activated by moving to appropriate new site - Lure of Creation.
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