Witch-king of Angmar

[Konrad Klar]

Unique. Nazgûl (1st). May be played as a hazard creature (with one strike) or as a permanent event. As a creature, may also be played keyed to Angmar, Gundabad, Gorgoroth, and Imlad Morgul; and may also be played at sites in these regions. If played as a permanent-event, it will remain in play until tapped during the opponent's movement/hazard phase (tapping counts against the hazard limit). When tapped, Witch-king of Angmar becomes a long-event and causes all Shadow-holds to become Dark-holds .

Some environment events cause a site/region type to be treated as other site/region type. Using a word treated instead "changed" (or "becomes") is not accidental. This indicates that no change is applied to an object, rather an object is under an effect. Once the effect disappears (sometimes along with a card that cause it), the object is no longer treated in some way.

To make the Witch-king of Angmar's effect to be working in the manner I propose the following erratum:

Unique. Nazgûl (1st). May be played as a hazard creature (with one strike) or as a permanent event. As a creature, may also be played keyed to Angmar, Gundabad, Gorgoroth, and Imlad Morgul; and may also be played at sites in these regions. If played as a permanent-event, it will remain in play until tapped during the opponent's movement/hazard phase (tapping counts against the hazard limit). When tapped, Witch-king of Angmar becomes a long-event and all Shadow-holds are treated as Dark-holds .

[Theo]

I would appreciate examples of how this change is intended to affect other game mechanics.

[Konrad Klar]

This change is intended to affect a game, not to affect a game mechanics.

Without this change all Shadow-holds that become Dark-holds should remain Dark-holds even after expiration of Witch-king of Angmar long-event.
Similarly all sites tapped in result of action from Long Winter do not untap, when Long Winter leaves play.

If an object is under some effect, it ceases to be under the effect when the effect disappears.
If a change is applied to an object, it is irrelevant whether the factors that caused the change are still in play, or not.

[Theo]

Got it, thanks.

[CDavis7M]

I disagree with the interpretation of "becomes" as having indefinite length of effect.

[Konrad Klar]

Short-event Deeper Shadow leaves play after its resolution, buts its "becoming" effect persists.

[Bandobras Took]

I disagree with the interpretation of "becomes" as having indefinite length of effect.

So, when I use Where There's a Whip, everybody that becomes untapped must immediately tap again once the short event is discarded?

[CDavis7M]

Short-event Deeper Shadow leaves play after its resolution, buts its "becoming" effect persists.

I disagree. It is a short event intended to last until the end of the turn.

This is a basic game mechanic (short vs long vs permanent). There is no difference is meaning between "becomes" and "treated as" in the game.

[CDavis7M]

I disagree with the interpretation of "becomes" as having indefinite length of effect.

So, when I use Where There's a Whip, everybody that becomes untapped must immediately tap again once the short event is discarded?

What are you talking about? This is not a valid conclusion from my statement.

Why are there so many bogus posts.

[Konrad Klar]

Now I see that King under the Mountain requires similar errata.

[Bandobras Took]

So, when I use Where There's a Whip, everybody that becomes untapped must immediately tap again once the short event is discarded?

What are you talking about? This is not a valid conclusion from my statement.

Why are there so many bogus posts.

I disagree with the interpretation of "becomes" as having indefinite length of effect.

Each unwounded character in the company becomes untapped.

If "becomes" is not of indefinite duration, then the untapped state would only last as long as Where There's a Whip is in play.

It is a short event intended to last until the end of the turn. This is a basic game mechanic (short vs long vs permanent).

This is specifically contradicted by the rules.

Short-event - A short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some short-events last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say: "until the end of the turn").

Short-event: A resource or hazard that is discarded when it resolves (though it may have a lasting effect).

No indication of a default duration anywhere, notes that some events indicate a specific duration, and allowance for lasting effects.

Though I do agree with you about the following:

Why are there so many bogus posts.

[Theo]

Even with CoE #31 "If a short event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn", we wouldn't want the characters untapped by Where There's a Whip to be retapped at the end of the turn.

[CDavis7M]

I agree with your statements. I just meant that Deeper Shadows, itself, was intended to have limited duration, likely until the end of the turn (or maybe the end of the phase). There is no hint of short events lasting longer than the end of the turn. However, there IS a hint that a short event should NOT last past the end of the turn, and that is its name, SHORT event (as compared to LONG or PERMANENT events).

Short-event – A short-event’s effects are implemented; then, it is discarded. The effects of some shortevents last for a specific period as stated on its card (e.g., some say: “until the end of the turn”).

According to this, I believe that any short even with a lasting effect MUST indicate the specific period if it does not simply implement its effects immediately. Any absence of a duration or period is a mistake and should be clarified or corrected.

As for "becomes," I stand by my reasoning and still disagree with the example given for "Where There's a Whip" as the term "becomes" has meaning divorced from timing. And I don't see any difference between "becomes" and the phrase "treated as" with respect to the rules of this game.

Other players can read the statements and make their own conclusions.