Annotation 26

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:13 am

CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General wrote:Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the
player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in
which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
There is a period between beginning of an untap phase and end of a long-event phase in which order of "multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied" is not defined.

To solve the problem I propose the following erratum:

Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the
player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in
which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the end of next long-event phase.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Bandobras Took » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:42 am

rather "are resolved until the end of the next long-event phase."
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:04 am

Right.

So proposed erratum is now:

Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the
player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in
which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved until the end of the next long-event phase.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:49 am

Proposed erratum is now:

"Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the
player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in
which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established (and also in period
between beginning of first turn of game and end of the long-event phase), all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved until the end of the next long-event phase."

(and also in period between beginning of first turn of game and end of the long-event phase)
covers a short period of game in which "multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied"
may appear.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:02 pm

Konrad - Will you please provide a couple actual examples where your proposed change would be applicable?

Thanks

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:35 am

Doors of Night, Fell Winter, Morgul Night are in play.

Under current rules the order of effects of Fell Winter and Morgul Night is not defined in organization phase.
So it is not known whether Anduin Vales should be treated as [-me_wi-], or as [-me_sl-].
So FW player does not know whether he may play or may not play Alatar (has home site: Any non-"Dragon's lair" [-me_rl-] in Wilderness) at Gladden Fields.
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:09 am

Defined order of effects of Fell Winter and Morgul Night is also necessary to estimate accessibility of sites for Gwaihir's special movement, for playability of Refuge and Wondrous Maps.

Order of effects of Itangast at Home, Bane of the Ithil-stone, if not known does not allow to calculate CPs of greater item palantirs.
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:14 pm

I'm not sure about the proposal. I think it might be misguided but I'm collecting my thoughts.

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:08 am

Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
The first part of Annotation 26 describes the hazard player setting the resolution order of hazard effects as he wishes (for permanent event and long event hazards).

"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn." -- This last sentence in Annotation 26 says that you go back to the normal timing rules after you let the hazard player pick the resolution order. Presumably, the ordering of those effects is maintained forever unless you run into the same situation again where there are multiple effects at the "start of a player's movement hazard phase." In which case, the current hazard player sets the order.

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:13 am
There is a period between beginning of an untap phase and end of a long-event phase in which order of "multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied" is not defined.
It is not undefined. It is still defined from before. The ordering of effects has already been defined and continues to be defined. There is no duration set on the resolution order set by the hazard player. It is the "further"/later actions that are applied in the order they are resolved (as normal). Though, it is a little weird for the sentence to conclude with "for the rest of the turn" when it is merely stating what normally happens.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:13 am
Once this interpretation is established (and also in period between beginning of first turn of game and end of the long-event phase), all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved until the end of the next long-event phase."
I'm not really sure what the proposed language "until the end of the next long-event phase" is trying to achieve.

If anything "all further actions are applied in the order they are resolved until the end of the game, unless at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in which they are to be applied"

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:49 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:08 am
I'm not really sure what the proposed language "until the end of the next long-event phase" is trying to achieve.
Filling the gap leaved by:
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn."
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:55 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:49 pm
Filling the gap leaved by:
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn."
But isn't that "gap" already covered by the normal timing rules indicating that all actions are applied in the order that they are resolved. This rule still applies at the beginning of the turn through the end of the long-event phase.
MELE Timing Rules wrote:Such a series of declared actions is called a chain of effects. You always have the option of declaring the first action in a chain of effects during your turn. The actions in a chain of effects are resolved one at a time from last declared to first declared (i.e., the last declared action is resolved first, then the second to the last, etc.).

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:00 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:55 pm
But isn't that "gap" already covered by the normal timing rules indicating that all actions are applied in the order that they are resolved.
Then:
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn."
could be also:
"Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the end of site phase."
and would mean the same?
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:05 pm

Yes. I do think the original statement "until the end of the turn" is a little misleading as there is no duration.

What does have a duration is the Hazard players ordering - it only lasts until the next M/H phase where multiple effects are in play. If the order does matter, then the ordering could be changed by the current hazard player.

If effects are discarded such that the ordering doesn't matter, then the order chosen by the previous hazard player also doesn't matter.

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Re: Annotation 26

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:13 pm

Hopefully an extending the period in which order of effects in play decided by hazard player is established to the point of next reset will not hurt.
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Re: Annotation 26

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:43 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:35 am
Doors of Night, Fell Winter, Morgul Night are in play.

Under current rules the order of effects of Fell Winter and Morgul Night is not defined in organization phase.
So it is not known whether Anduin Vales should be treated as , or as .
So FW player does not know whether he may play or may not play Alatar (has home site: Any non-"Dragon's lair" in Wilderness) at Gladden Fields.
Under current rules the order of effects of Fell Winter and Morgul Night during the organization phase is defined by Annotation 10.

The proposal would not let a hazard player set the environment order one way during their opponent's M/H phase and then set the order a different way during their following organization phase when placing a site to play a character. Such as when fell winter, morgul night, long winter, and foul fumes are in play.


As for playing fallen Alatar at Gladden Fields, the ordering of hazard effects is known. (A) whether a region type of a region card not in play can be affected by Fell Winter and Morgul Night or (B) whether the site's site-path can be used to determine a region type are different questions.

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