Council of Elrond

CRF, Rulings by Term, Agents wrote:Agents may not move to any version of a hero Haven, unless they have a special
ability allowing them to.

[...]

Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven.

First sentence correctly specifies a conditions that agent must met to be able to move to any version of hero Haven.
Sense of second sentence should be reconstructed because literally it has no impact on game at all. Hero and FW players use hero site cards for hazard agents, minion players use minion site cards for hazard agents. None of the site cards is Wizardhaven; other versions of them may be Wizardhaven.
Except the fact that coincidentally all currently released Elven agents have a special ability allowing them to move to a Haven, the race of agent has nothing to do with the ability.
Additionally one issue is not regulated. Versions of which Wizardhavens should be taken into account? These for which Wizardhaven site card has been released, the sites for which version currently in play is Wizardhaven, or both.

I propose the following erratum for the second sentence:

"Only agents that have a special ability that allow them to move to a Haven can move to a site for which version currently in play is Wizardhaven."

"If any player's version of a site is a Wizardhaven, only Elven agent hazards may move there." would be my preference.

I believe the intent of the rule is also to prevent agents from moving to "default" Wizardhavens (White Towers, Isengard, and (for Radagast) Rhosgobel), whether they are currently in play or not.

What to say?
FW version of The White Towers (an Isengard too) may change its site type, hypothetical non-Elf agent may have a required special ability, hypothetical Elf agent may not have the required special ability.

A hypothetical elven agent without the special ability to move to hero havens could theoretically have a special ability also preventing them from moving to Wizardhavens if the designer wanted them to not move there.

If none of the versions in any player's deck are a currently a wizardhaven, agents can move there. Likewise, if Lorien is currently a dark-hold, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that any agent can move there.

"If any player's version of a site is a Wizardhaven, only agent hazards that have a special ability that allow them to move to a Haven may move there." would be my preference*.
So even if Nature's Revenge is on The White Towers, but there is other FW player (not having The White Towers in play) agent hazards without special ability may not move here.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:39 pm A hypothetical elven agent without the special ability to move to hero havens could theoretically have a special ability also preventing them from moving to Wizardhavens if the designer wanted them to not move there.

It may also rely on rules defaults, so it is better that the rules defaults was precise.
Hypothetical possibilities are multiple. It may be e.g. an effect that removes agent's special abilities.

*) for compatibility with my statements made in Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:16 pmSo even if Nature's Revenge is on The White Towers, but there is other FW player (not having The White Towers in play) agent hazards without special ability may not move here.

That would be my preference, because otherwise there is the possibility of moving an agent to a given player's haven, where they should be safe (barring the play of hazards to enable such).

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:16 pm "If any player's version of a site is a Wizardhaven, only agent hazards that have a special ability that allow them to move to a Haven may move there." would be my preference*.
So even if Nature's Revenge is on The White Towers, but there is other FW player (not having The White Towers in play) agent hazards without special ability may not move here.

I made a very stupid mistake.
It is just against my statements made in Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?
Therefore I change my preference to:

"Only agents that have a special ability that allow them to move to a Haven can move to a site for which other version is Wizardhaven."

It does not necessarily mean that the scenario above with Nature's Revenge on The White Towers is wrong, or that it is OK.
The question is open as open are questions from thread "Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?", but at least the version is neutral (does not decide anything in the matter).
"for which other version is Wizardhaven" excludes a type of the site card used by agent from consideration. This is important if an agent is face-up and moves.

P.S. I believe that type of site of version(s) currently in play is (are) checked first, then (only if site is not in play) normal type of site in versions that players can use.
Both if it is checked whether a given site is Wizardhaven, or whether there are any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel.
Essentially this is the same check.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:03 amP.S. I believe that type of site of version(s) currently in play is (are) checked first, then (only if site is not in play) normal type of site in versions that players can use.

This sounds like a very solid general rule that should probably be codified.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:20 pm

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:03 amP.S. I believe that type of site of version(s) currently in play is (are) checked first, then (only if site is not in play) normal type of site in versions that players can use.

This sounds like a very solid general rule that should probably be codified.

Any idea how the respective thread should be titled?

Nothing elegant, no. "Determining applicability of site-affecting and site-targeting cards" is a little long-winded.

This is similar to a post I had and was talking about but didn't directly concern agents.

I think the problem lies in the fact that we need a time frame for WHEN we determine what TYPE a site actually is.

There are some grey areas with this that I have been going over, but I can pinpoint the actual direction to go.

I mean here is just a simple question:

What is the site type of Carn Dûm? Answer that, can you?

I mean I beleive in the purest sense Carn Dûm is a Dark-hold.
But then there is also, no it's a Haven?
(or in DC, an Ancient Dwarf-ruin also? But when? and for who? And how long does this status last?, if you wanna forego DC fine)
But just a general guideline, but for FWs too!

I don't really have time to get into the deeper related issues gotta work,
but "guidelines" would be better off being created for ALL site issues then just a "one-off" rule for agents...

2¢

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:30 pm Nothing elegant, no. "Determining applicability of site-affecting and site-targeting cards" is a little long-winded.

Thanks for suggestion.
Ultimately I have decided that "Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game" will be appropriate title.

Please give thoughts on this proposal (rough draft):

First, nullify the following CRF:

Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven.

Second, change this CRF:

Agents may not move to any version of a hero Haven, unless they have a special ability allowing them to.

To This:

Unless they have a special ability allowing them to, agents may not move to the following sites:
- Rivendell, Lorien, Grey Havens, Edhellond.
- The White Towers, Isengard if any player is a Fallen-wizard.
- Rhosgobel if any player is Fallen Radagast.
- Any version of any site in play which is currently a haven for any Wizard.

Admittedly, this is rather wordy, but I am trying to include the necessary restrictions without creating unnecessary ones.

This (i.e. using of any proper names of sites in rule) would be against my proposals in "Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game".
In some circumstances all copies in play of the listed site could be non-haven, or non-Wizardhaven.

This topic will most likely make it into this year's ARV. After having read the discussion in this thread, I'll suggest the following as the alternative to be voted on. Please comment, if this suggestion is appropriate (and if not, please make suggestions for improvement, thank you!)

Unless they have a special ability allowing them to, agents may not move to a site, one of its versions is currently in play as a hero Haven or Wizardhaven. If there is no version of the site currently in play, agents may not move to a site that is a hero Haven or Wizard haven in any player's site deck. Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven, whether in play or in any player's site deck.