Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

Also The Black Council and The White Council check for amount of MPs of given player.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by CDavis7M »

So, a player is still at a Shadow-hold where they have played an Orc faction, to total 4 Orc factions not playable at a Darkhold, and they have Great Army of the North in play, and they played Witch-King long-event on their opponent and it is still in play during their turn, and they want to play The Black Council during their organization phase, but they need the 2 MP from Great Army to have enough MP to play Black Council but it is questionable whether they get the 2MP from Great Army of the North.

No wonder.

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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Theo »

"If you will meddle in the affairs of [rules] wizards, you must be prepared to think of such things."
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by CDavis7M »

"none playable at a Dark-hold"

Which unique Orc/Troll factions are "playable" at a Dark-hold site-type? None.

Which unique factions that a player already has in play are "playable" anywhere? None.

Which factions are playable at an opponent's copy of the site? None.

What are the issues with Great Army of the North? None.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:59 am
Which unique Orc/Troll factions are "playable" at a Dark-hold site-type? None.
No unique faction is playable at [-me_dh-] by type.
Orcs of Moria is playable at Moria, by site's name, according to text of Orcs of Moria.
The text does not state that Orcs of Moria is playable at site contained in Redhorn Gate.
So Orcs of Moria are not playable at a site contained in Redhorn Gate?
Trouble on All Borders, No Escape from my Magic on Orcs of Moria do not affect anything?
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:59 am
What are the issues with Great Army of the North? None.
So have Uruk-hai, Orcs of the Ash Mountains, Orcs of the Ephel Dúath, Orcs of Udûn and enjoy 2 MPs from Great Army of the North.

P.S.
I agree that there is no issue with Great Army of the North.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

If Fallen Wizard, or Wizard, or Balrog players participate in game then also factions playable at sites that have normally type [-me_dha-] may be considered as playable at [-me_dh-]. Hero version of some [-me_dha-] cards have type of [-me_dh-]; Balrog versions of some Ringwrith's [-me_dha-] cards also have type of [-me_dh-].

According to my proposal, in first place only types of sites in play are taken into account, so if only copies of Dol Guldur in play are Ringwrith's [-me_dha-] cards, then Orcs of Dol Guldur is not considered playable at [-me_dh-].
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

Early Harvest wrote:Playable on a faction that is normally playable at a [-me_bh-] (except Army of the Dead). Make a roll (draw a #) modified by -1 if the faction is a minion faction. Return the faction to opponent's hand if the result plus the normal the faction gives is greater than 12. "...the vines were laden...and everywhere there was so much corn that at Harvest every barn was stuffed." -LotRVI
Because the card refers to "a faction that is normally playable at a [-me_bh-]" it is not affected by issues covered by this proposal; Bree is normally [-me_bh-] regardless of anything.
Rangers of the North is playable (according to its text) at Bree; Bree is normally [-me_bh-].

There are no factions that are (according to their text) normally playable by type at a [-me_bh-]; there are many factions that are normally playable at site that normally happen to be [-me_bh-].
Similarly there are no unique factions that are (according to their text) playable by type at [-me_dh-]; there are many factions that are playable at site that happen to be [-me_dh-].

Great Army of the North (as permanent-event) does not refer to the not existing factions.
Early Harvest does not refer to the not existing factions.

EDIT: two occurrences of "according to its text" - "according to their text"
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:13 am
Early Harvest does not refer to the not existing factions.
Or maybe it only refers to A Panoply of Wings? :roll:
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:27 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:59 am
Which unique Orc/Troll factions are "playable" at a Dark-hold site-type? None.
No unique faction is playable at [-me_dh-] by type.
Right.

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:41 am
If Fallen Wizard, or Wizard, or Balrog players participate in game then also factions playable at sites that have normally type [-me_dha-] may be considered as playable at [-me_dh-]. Hero version of some [-me_dha-] cards have type of [-me_dh-]; Balrog versions of some Ringwrith's [-me_dha-] cards also have type of [-me_dh-].

According to my proposal, in first place only types of sites in play are taken into account, so if only copies of Dol Guldur in play are Ringwrith's [-me_dha-] cards, then Orcs of Dol Guldur is not considered playable at [-me_dh-].
The difference in site types between alignments makes no difference. The playability of the faction on which a card (e.g., TOAB, NEFMM) is not changed based on opponent's site in play because the faction is not playable at an opponent's site. The premise of the proposal is invalid.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

Orcs of Dol Guldur is considered playable at Dol Guldur (regardless of what is type of Dol Guldur site in play, or whether Dol Guldur site is in play at all).

Purpose of the proposal is a determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game.
Whether [-me_dh-] or [-me_dha-] (or only one of them) version of Dol Guldur is considered as being in game does not affect playability of Orcs of Dol Guldur. It gives answer: whether Orcs of Dol Guldur is playable at [-me_dh-] or not.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:01 am
The playability of the faction on which a card (e.g., TOAB, NEFMM) is not changed based on opponent's site in play because the faction is not playable at an opponent's site. The premise of the proposal is invalid.
Premise is that a resource playable at site is still considered playable at the site even if the resource cannot be played. Otherwise a minion company at Bree could not make an influence attempt against Rangers of the North. TOAB, NEFMM on Rangers of the North would not affect a minion company.
Premise is that a site may be in game, even if the site is not in play. Otherwise TOAB, NEFMM on Orcs of Dol Guldur would not affect any company if Dol Guldur would not be currently in play.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by CDavis7M »

Think about someone reading this proposal and trying to figure out when and where it would apply and whether there is some better mechanism for clarifying the underlying issues.

There is never a reason to determine a presence of a site (of given type) in game.

If there is an issue with Great Army of the North then it has it's own issue.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:51 pm
There is never a reason to determine a presence of a site (of given type) in game.
Aside from these already discussed in this thread.

Mere stating that there is no an issue (or problem) does not remove the issue (or problem).
Of course if someone does not realize some issue (or problem) there is no reason for him to accept a regulation (or solution).
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:51 pm
Think about someone reading this proposal and trying to figure out when and where it would apply and whether there is some better mechanism for clarifying the underlying issues.
I do not consider a majority of players as dumb. I feel safe writing about non-obvious things.
I believe that if the proposal is unclear in some part, anyone interested is able to formulate a question.
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by Konrad Klar »

Regardless of issues discussed in this thread a playability of factions is not fixed.

Returned Exiles is playable at site where Dragon at Home manifestation was defeated. Initially nowhere.
The more Dragon at Home manifestation are defeated, the more sites at which Returned Exiles is playable.
Thus the range of regions affected by TOAB, NEFMM played on Returned Exiles becomes greater.

Tower Raided makes factions not playable at the target site.
Thus it nullifies effects of TOAB, NEFMM played on faction that was playable (only) at the target site.

The two cases was the inspiration for creating the proposal.
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Re: Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game

Post by CDavis7M »

When these cards are played on Returned Exiles, it is more likely that the number of sites would decrease (if reading the card).

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