WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:24 amThe internally consistent interpretation:
  • Ringwraiths get standard modification bonuses/penalties for influencing factions based on hero and minion factions in play. For example, a minion player playing minion Wain-easterlings would get +2 for the hero Easterlings faction being in play. (yes, I know the standard modification rules is a bulleted "ringwraith only rule").
  • When influencing an opponents faction, you use the standard modifications on that card. It is the type of the card that matters, not the alignment of the influencer. For example, when a Ringwraith's character attempts to influence an opponent's HERO Men of Dorwinion, they get the +1 standard modification if that minion character is a Man. To further this example, say the RW play reveals the minion version of Men of Dorwinion while the Easterlings is in play. The character does not receive the -2 standard modification from the minion version because it is the hero version being influenced. Similarly, a hero character would receive faction-based bonuses/penalties when influencing a minion faction.
  • Of course the word "Hobbits" on the hero faction Ents of Fangorn refers to the Hobbit race and not the Hobbits faction.
Yes, bulleted rules are "Ringwraith only rules." But that just means they apply to ringwraiths. If you contort these rules beyond belief then you end up with 59 posts.
These are not internally consistent if Wizards use Ringwraith-only rules, which is what they would be doing if they applied standard modifications based on factions already in play. It seems to me that to say Wizards should do so is to "contort these rules beyond belief."

As mentioned, the Balrog rules summary does not divide resources into hero/minion. It specifically says that "Characters in Wizard decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions."

It later goes on to say that you add "any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)".

Trying to claim that the Balrog rules call resources hero/minion rather than characters is another example of an attempt to "contort the rules beyond belief."

FWs, in their own rules, divide resources into hero/minion. To try to apply those definitions to a rule source where Fallen Wizards are not mentioned once qualifies as an attempt to "contort the rules beyond belief."

FW characters are hero with the exception of Orcs/Trolls, which don't appear to be either hero or minion (barring certain circumstances spelled out in MEWH). This lines up perfectly with the Balrog rules summary and METW. This does not represent any contortion of the rules.

The faction influence rules in either set tell you to add any applicable standard modifications. METW tells you which are applicable for Wizards, and the bulleted MELE tells you which are applicable for RWs and *not* Wizards. This does not represent any contortion of the rules.

A far more consistent and simple approach that requires no contortion is:

If a hero character is making an influence attempt, applicable standard modifications are those based on the race of the influencer.
If a minion character is making an influence attempt, applicable standard modifications are those based on the presence of factions in play.
Any other standard modifications list their own conditions.
Do not confuse modifications with standard modifications.
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CDavis7M
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This is a prime example of Rules Lawyering - interpreting the rulesbook as a series of individual rules having strict definitions and requirements without considering the entirety of the rules, the possibility that the statement might merely be descriptive or explanatory, the audience of the rulesbook, and the developer's intention.

Rules Lawyering may be a valid interpretation of the rules for some games but it is NOT VALID for this game. In some games you may know that the designer is a Rules Lawyer himself. Many modern games lean this way. In other games you may not know whether the designer is a Rules Lawyer or not. There NO indication in MECCG history that Coleman Charlton was a Rules Lawyer. Quite the opposite, we have several indications that Charlton was NOT a Rules Lawyer. He expressly disliked Cheezy plays (discovering loopholes in sloppy rules and card text to achieve results unintended by the designers). And (quite unlike some people here) he was not concerned with the minutia of rules and card interactions or proclaiming rulings. Coleman Charlton was not a Rules Lawyer.

No one I play with interprets the rules as a Rules Lawyer. But such interpretations are rampant on this forum and they are make it difficult for a new player (like myself) to decipher how the game is actually played by real players vs what the rules lawyers are nitpicking on the internet. Overtime the normal players stopped posted (why bother rehashing the same rules we have known for 20 years just to entertain the Rules Lawyers?). And I wouldn't bother spending my time to write this whole post if I didn't have so much of my time wasted by so much needless Rules Lawyering as I was trying to learn the rules to this game. At some point I'll put this into a new post for other beginners so hopefully they don't waste as much time as I did.

------

Let's step back for one minute and consider WHY the rulesbook was written in the first place, WHO was intended to read it, and HOW it was intended to be used. WHY - presumably all rulesbooks are written to describe the game play, explain how the mechanics of the game work, and describe the interactions of the different mechanics. WHO - presumably gamers and non-gamers, including kids in highschool, etc. were all considered as the audience for the rulesbook. The METW rulesbook even includes statements directed to non-CCG gamers. HOW - it was intended to be used to learn the game and used as a reference when playing the game. Unlike laws, rulesbooks are not lists of restrictions to be deciphered. Rulesbooks obvious contain rules but they also simply describe the game.

Given all of these considerations, maybe (just maybe!!!) the rules might have a SIMPLE explanation that covers these statements on "Ringwraith only rules" and the Balrog statement on influencing that are supposedly "rules" alone and in themselves.
Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm These are not internally consistent if Wizards use Ringwraith-only rules, which is what they would be doing if they applied standard modifications based on factions already in play.
Consider for a moment that the bulleted "ringwraith only rules" are not actually rules that may strictly ONLY be used by a Ringwraith (and not a wizard). As explained in the "Starter" section of the MELE rules, the bullets indicate RULES DIFFERENCES compared to the METW rules. The stated purpose of the bullets is so that "experienced players of METW can examine these passages and proceed with playing." Now, of course the MELE WITH METW section calls the bulleted section "Ringwraith only rules" but I'll present a hypothetical and given a simple explanation for this statement.

Let's considered a hypothetical situation 20 years ago where two highschool kids want to play Middle Earth. These two players want to play together, but one only have METW cards while the other has MELE cards. Luckily the MELE rules contain an entire section (Part IV) on "USING MELE WITH METW." Oh boy! This will be fun! Oh, but look "do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things--passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar." "Ahh," says the Wizard. "That is good to know - I will be sure not to confuse myself by reading those bulleted passages."

These 2 players are relatively new to the game and so they decide to play with the STARTER RULES. The players being the game and at some point in their turns they want to play faction cards and so the consult the MELE rulesbook they have available. There is the bulleted ("Ringwraith only") rule regarding Standard Modifications in the Starter Rules on p. 39. "Most faction cards list some 'standard modifications' to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players." The Wizard player sees this and think "oh yes, of course this is a 'ringwraith only' rule because MY faction cards from METW do NOT list standard modifications based on the factions already in play. Instead they list the race. Duh!" So this rule only applies to Ringwraiths. Clearly the WIzard playing his own METW factions, that don't list other factions, do not get any bouses based on factions in play. Thus, standard modifications based on factions in play normally only apply to a Ringwraith player. And in the STARTER RULES (where this rule is found), you cannot influence an opponent's factions (which is in the STANDARD RULES) and so when playing the Starter Rules, only a Ringwraith will ever used modifications based on factions in play.

A few weeks later the two players want to play again. They decide to use the STANDARD RULES now because they are very knowledgeable on the rules. The Wizard player wants to be fancy and influence away the Ringwraith's factions. He consults the rulesbook in the STANDARD rules on page 65 of the MELE rules book. (not-bulleted) "The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card)." Just to be sure he digs out his METW rules book and looks at p. 60 in the Standard Rules and the rule is almost exactly the same. "OK" the wizard player thinks, "So when a Ringwraith player normally plays a faction, he gets bonuses/penalties based on the other factions in play while a Wizard does not normally get this because regular old METW factions do not have bonuses based on factions in play (they are based on Race instead). HOWEVER, when you influence an opponent's faction, the wizard DOES get the bonuses/penalties AS GIVEN ON THE FACTION'S CARD." However, it doesn't seem fair to given wizards bonuses based on a ringwraiths factions. Oh! Well good thing the developers thought of this, and so in Part IV USING MELE WITH METW we have the rule "All influence checks are modified by -5; i.e., its harder for evil characters to influence the Free Peoples and vice versa" on page 85.

All of these rules above are from multiple different sections titled "9 · INFLUENCE", they are just found in the Starter Rules (the bulleted rules on standard modifications), the Standard Rules (for influencing opponents factions), and the MELE WITH METW section (for the -5 modifier). All of these rules apply and all of them are consistent with each other,.

The bullets do not mean that a Wizard may NEVER use standard modifications based on factions in play, the simply indication that wizard's do not normally get modifications based on factions in play because their faction cards don't provide standard modifications as such (instead they are based on race).

This is not a "wizard using ringwraith only rules." This is a wizard using rules that normally apply to ringwraiths playing normal factions in the special case where the wizard player is influencing a faction played by a ringwraith player. And this special case is defined in the Standard Rules and it is not bulleted.
Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm As mentioned, the Balrog rules summary does not divide resources into hero/minion. It specifically says that "Characters in Wizard decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions."
It later goes on to say that you add "any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)".
This is not a NEW RULE. It is merely a DESCRIPTION of how the game normally proceeds when simply playing factions (not when influencing an opponents). Hero characters normally get standard modifications for their race simply by virtue of the fact that hero factions list races and not other factions in play. Minion characters normally get standard modifications based on the other factions in play by virtue of minion factions listing standard modifications based on other factions in play.
Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm A far more consistent and simple approach that requires no contortion is:

If a hero character is making an influence attempt, applicable standard modifications are those based on the race of the influencer.
If a minion character is making an influence attempt, applicable standard modifications are those based on the presence of factions in play.
Any other standard modifications list their own conditions.
Do not confuse modifications with standard modifications.
Except this approach explicitly goes against the rules for influencing an opponent's faction given in the Standard METW rules on p. 60 and the Standard MELE Rules on p. 65 which state that "the influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card). (METW says "'standard modifications'" instead of just "modification"). You never explained why you think that this STANDARD rule should be overridden by the bulleted STARTER rule or the Balrog SUMMARY.

Step back and consider the the statement in the Balrog rules summary might simply be a description on how the game is played and that the "ringwraith only" rules in the MELE with MELE rules might simply be indicating TO A WIZARD PLAYER that those rules don't normally apply to them (not necessarily that those rules never apply when other rules clearly indicate otherwise).

The rules are actually fairly simple and direct. The problem is that they are formatted to allow for both starter and standard rules. And they are long. Almost 100 pages. It is hard to keep all of that together as context. Especially adding the individual card text and CRF on top of it. Still, a simple explanation can work most of the time and it certainly can work here for standard modifications.

But feel free to Rules Lawyer this post by quoting single sentences out of context and quoting rules out of context to explain how my statements are wrong out without explaining how it has any bearing on my conclusion regarding standard modifications.
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Bandobras Took
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I'm going to politely ask you to tone it down. This is the last time I will be polite about it.
Consider for a moment that the bulleted "ringwraith only rules" are not actually rules that may strictly ONLY be used by a Ringwraith (and not a wizard).
Do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things - passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.
That's exactly what they are. When the rulebook says "Ringwraith only," we do not pretend that it says "Ringwraiths and everybody else who happens to be playing with them." To do otherwise is falsehood, no matter how many paragraphs are spent giving pointless examples.

Speaking of which, the example seems to be explaining how the rules don't actually say what they say, because new players wouldn't play that way. Ignoring for the moment that new players being mistaken is far from rare, and that claiming the rules don't actually say what they say is Rules Lawyering 101, you keep saying:
applicable modifications
applicable modifications
As though that somehow means everybody uses everything. The problem is that the modifications have to actually be applicable.

Modifications that do not apply should not be applied. A Ringwraith player never uses METW rules. Period.

If it needed to be any clearer, the Balrog Summary does exactly that.

To claim that you add modifications just because they happen to be listed on the card is false. You do not add +1 for men if the influencer is not a Man (and if you are claiming that, the issues are far larger than what's being discussed here). Your problems lies in assuming that one condition is the only condition, when the rules explicitly state that it is not. For this standard modification to be applicable, the influencer must be:

1) a Man; and
2) a Hero (per the Balrog Rules Summary supporting the indication of METW, which a RW player never uses).

If either of those conditions fails, the modification is not applicable. There is no rule anywhere that permits a RW player to apply the Standard Modifications listed on a hero faction. Therefore, they are not applicable. There is no rule anywhere that permits a Wizard player to apply the Standard Modifications listed on a minion faction. Therefore, they are not applicable. They are not applicable because you are of the wrong alignment for the rule to apply.

Your entire argument is based around doing exactly what the rules tell you not to do:
Do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things
Adding Standard Modifications based on the presence of factions is particular to playing a RW. That's why it is bulleted. Adding Standard Modifications based on the influencer being a given race is particular to playing a Wizard. That's why no such rule exists for Ringwraiths.

To sum up:

Directly ignoring
Do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things - passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.
to try and shoehorn in any and all modifications to the phrase
add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played)
is to ignore the words appropriate (it is not appropriate for Wizards to use RW rules, and vice versa) and applicable (those Standard Modifications don't always apply, and one of the conditions is whether the influencer is Hero or Minion, per the Balrog).
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CDavis7M
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Bandobras Took wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 pm I'm going to politely ask you to tone it down. This is the last time I will be polite about it.
Is that a threat that you will be impolite? I respectfully disagree about my impoliteness and I will sincerely and respectfully give you the respect that you deserve. Still, it is unclear how my tone is any "less-down" than your tone.

Anyway, I think this all boils down to what are "applicable modifications" and the "ringwraith only rules."

You think applicability refers to alignment:
They are not applicable because you are of the wrong alignment for the rule to apply.
I think applicability refers to whether the modification matches race or factions in play. The term "applicable" is used the same in the METW rules on influencing opponent's factions as in MELE, and the METW rules were not written in consideration of different alignments. The term "applicable" is also used in the Starter rules concerning normal play/influencing of factions. So the term "applicable" cannot be referring to alignments.

The section on influencing opponent's factions is NOT bulleted and so it is NOT a Ringwraith only rule. A portion of the section on standard modifications in the MELE starter rules IS bulleted and it is for PLAYING factions not INFLUENCING factions (which is only part of the Standard rules, not the starter rules).

My interpretation is simple - when a wizard influences a ringwraith's faction, the influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card), where modifications are not "applicable" if the corresponding factions are not in play.

Your interpretation is needlessly complex (owing to its incorrectness) - when a wizard influences a ringwraith's faction, they should first buy a box of Balrog and read the summary of the rules instead of reading their own METW rules, and pay close attention to the statement regarding playability of factions, and read this as a restriction rather than a general (summary) description. Then the wizard player should return to their game and instead of looking at the Standard Rules given in both METW and MELE for influencing an opponents factions, the wizard player instead goes into the Starter Rules and starts to read the bulleted sections for ringwraiths (even though they have been warned not to) and they interpret the bulleted sections as being restrictions on the things that a wizard can do instead of reading them as specifications for ringwraith players identifying the differences between what ringwraiths do compared to what wizards do.

Why would a Wizard player go and read the bulleted Starter Rules for ringwraiths at all? They are ringwraith only rules and are not restrictions on what a wizard player can do.
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:59 pm Still, it is unclear how my tone is any "less-down" than your tone.
Really? Are you just accidentally typing every possible pairing of bold italic underline large-font capslock name-calling?


CDavis7M wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:59 pm The section on influencing opponent's factions is NOT bulleted and so it is NOT a Ringwraith only rule. A portion of the section on standard modifications in the MELE starter rules IS bulleted and it is for PLAYING factions not INFLUENCING factions (which is only part of the Standard rules, not the starter rules).
As far as I'm concerned, this was your only attempt at contributing evidence I care about for your hypothesis. (I am notoriously against "everyone plays this way" propaganda.) But I think you are misinformed about the meaning of the side bullets.
MELE: USING THIS RULEBOOK wrote:Note: The rules for MELE are very similar to the rules for Middle-earth: The Wizards. Passages with major rules differences are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar (just as this paragraph is marked). Experienced players of METW can examine these passages and proceed with playing.
Only section four changes the meaning of bullets:
MELE: USING MELE WITH METW wrote:... passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.
So in particular, what I think you were trying to claim the MELE rules possibly applying to Wizards is contradicted by:
MELE: THE STARTER RULES wrote:Note: These rules apply to a Ringwraith player playing a Ringwraith player.
MELE: STANDARD RULES wrote:Note: These rules apply to a Ringwraith player playing a Ringwraith player.
There are simply no rules that a Wizard player can follow that allow them to interpret (for any effect) the meaning of standard modifications which are based on the presence of other factions in play.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:59 pm Why would a Wizard player go and read the bulleted[any] Starter Rules for ringwraiths at all?
This is precisely the point.
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Theo wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:26 pm There are simply no rules that a Wizard player can follow that allow them to interpret (for any effect) the meaning of standard modifications which are based on the presence of other factions in play.
Except the rules for influencing an opponent's factions on METW p. 60 mentioned above. I put it in bold to emphasis this important point. But it seems like you missed it. Still, adding emphasis is not name calling.

And yes, we know the bulleted statements are indicated as both "changes" and "Ringwraith only rules" (this was discussed in a different thread). Regardless, a "Ringwraith only rule" doesn't prevent a Wizard from taking similar actions if they have their own rule for doing so.

The "Ringwraith only rules" for influencing their own factions (MELE starter rules, influence, p. 39) state that Ringswraiths use standard modifications based on factions in play. This rule does NOT state that a Wizard can never apply standard modifications based on the factions in play. But clearly a Wizard cannot use this bulleted rule on p. 39 of the MELE rules.
MELE p. 39 wrote:STANDARD MODIFICATIONS
Most faction cards list some “standard modifications” to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.
I would say that this is more of a description of faction cards than a "rule" that provides allowances or restrictions to be follow. But still, a wizard would need their own rule to get standard modifications based on the factions in play. And wizards DO have their own rule that lets them use the standard modification that is found on the card when they are influencing an opponent's faction. This rule is found in the METW rules book (standard rules, influence, influencing an opponent's faction, p. 60).
METW p. 60 wrote:Influencing an Opponent's Faction
To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:
  • Instead of a mind attribute, the influence check uses the value usually required to bring the faction
    into play (as given on the faction’s card).
  • The influence check is modified by any of the faction’s applicable "Standard Modifications" (as given on the faction’s card).
  • Revealing an identical faction card reduces the value usually required to bring the faction into play to zero and allows you to play that card if the influence check is successful.
This rule lets wizards use the standard modification on the card. This rule is not canceled just because an opponents card lists modifications based on the factions in play. The Ringwraith only rule does not apply to wizards. But the Ringwraith only rule does not indirectly restrict Wizards from ever getting modifications based on the factions in play.

As discussed above "applicable" is not referring to alignment (clearly, considering this is a METW rule). This is just referring to whether the modification is used or not (the race matches or the faction is in play).

Note - the METW rule p. 60 for wizard's influencing an opponent's factions is almost exactly the same as the corresponding rule for ringwraiths on MELE p. 65 except that METW says "'Standard Modifications'" while MELE says "modifications." Meaning that Ringwraith characters would get bonuses based on their race if influencing a wizard's factions.

Of course, this might be seen to break the simulation aspect. And so wizards and ringwraiths get a -5 modification to influence attempts against each other.

As for the Balrog rules that supposedly clarify this - that particular rule in located in section "5 Site Phase - PLAYING A FACTION." Of course you add "any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)." These are the only possible modifications when playing your own faction because those are the only modifications written on the cards. The difference comes when you influence an opponent's faction.

With respect to standard modifications when the influencing an opponent's faction, the Balrog include the section "Influencing an Opponent's Resources - Influencing a Faction" (in the same section 5), which simply state "apply any relevant standard modification." Presumably this is a summary of the METW and MELE rules mentioned above.

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CDavis7M
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ICE Rules Digest 34 wrote:From: Michael <Micha...@xtra.co.nz>
>A question about influencing away factions on an opposing side:
>
>If a hero character is attempting to influence away a minion faction
>which standard modifications are used? Is it those on the minion faction
>card or those on the hero faction card? Also, what happens if the hero
>player reveals the same faction?


Always use the standard modifications listed on the faction card you
are trying to influence
. Revealing the hero version of the faction
has the same effects as revealing an identical faction: It reduces
the value to bring the faction into play to zero, and allows you
to play that faction if the influence check is succesful.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by CDavis7M on Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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I think applicability refers to whether the modification matches race or factions in play. The term "applicable" is used the same in the METW rules on influencing opponent's factions as in MELE, and the METW rules were not written in consideration of different alignments. The term "applicable" is also used in the Starter rules concerning normal play/influencing of factions. So the term "applicable" cannot be referring to alignments.
Thank you for thinking.

However, the idea that no further restrictions to applicability can be added by further expansions merely because they weren't there in the initial release is untenable.
MEDM wrote:The concept of minions used in a non-agent fashion will be introduced in Middle-earth: The Lidless Eye (a stand-alone expansion due out in the Spring of 1997). In The Lidless Eye, minions will be used like characters, but each minion will be under the influence of one of Sauron's Dark Lieutenants.
Rules and cards not only *can* refer to future concepts, they *did.* We have to test applicability based on all the rules we have for applying standard modifications, and one of those became alignment with the release of MELE.

The ICE ruling is correct. You use the Standard Modifications of the card you are trying to influence, not the card you are trying to play as the result of the influence check. Therefore, a hero gets no standard modifications, as he must use any applicable ones on the minion card in play. He cannot use the ones on the hero faction the player revealed.

Note that there is no similar restriction for non-Standard Modifications. A hero attempting to influence a Dragon Faction may discard items for a bonus to the check. A Few Recruits lists modifications based on characteristics of the influencer. But *Standard* modifications are subject to special rules.
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CDavis7M
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The Digest doesn't use the word "applicable." In response to the question it says wizards use the standard modifications listed on the minion card.

If the Standard Modifications on Minion cards were never usable by Wizards influencing minion factions, then the Digest would not have said to use the standard modifications on the card. If the alignment rule you made up was correct, the Digest would have stated that rule.

And yes, later expansions did change the rules. But the Balrog "rules" that your interpretation relies on are really a description of the normal play of factions, not any new rule. And the Balrog statement on heroes and minions isn't even mentioned in the Balrog section for influencing opponents factions. If there really was a new alignment rule for standard modifications when influencing an opponents factions then it would have been in that section.

The MELE rules create no restrictions on a wizard player's use of standard modifications on the card.
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So you're now taking the position that it doesn't matter whether the listed faction for the Standard Modification is in play. You have to use it, no matter what, because the Digest said so, with no reference to whether the Standard Modification is applicable.
If the alignment rule you made up was correct, the Digest would have stated that rule.
But the Balrog "rules" that your interpretation relies on are really a description of the normal play of factions, not any new rule.
Somebody's making things up, but it's not me.

The question was about whether to use the standard modifications of the card in play or the card you reveal. The answer correctly stated to use the ones of the card in play. If your Wizard is Radagast, you use the Standard Modification of the card in play when influencing the opposing RW's Beasts of the Wood.

Of *course* the Balrog Summary's statement is not a new rule. It is a restatement of existing rules with clearer language. As they did for such things as trophies and detainment attacks.

The rules already exist, and only a determination to fuse METW with MELE -- something we're told not to do -- would lead somebody to insist that a description of the proper way to play is somehow not indicative of the proper way to play, or that when a definition is provided at the beginning of a rules document, it's somehow invalid later on in the document.

After all:
This is a prime example of Rules Lawyering - interpreting the rulesbook as a series of individual rules having strict definitions and requirements without considering the entirety of the rules
And the Balrog statement on heroes and minions isn't even mentioned in the Balrog section for influencing opponents factions.
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Bandobras Took wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:08 pm So you're now taking the position that it doesn't matter whether the listed faction for the Standard Modification is in play. You have to use it, no matter what, because the Digest said so, with no reference to whether the Standard Modification is applicable.
No. I never said that a player would get a modification whether or not the faction was in play. I'll link to my previous posts. Since we differ on the word "applicable," I will not use that word. From the beginning my position has been that when a character influences their opponent's factions, they use the standard modifications that are on the card. And, as normal, the influence attempt only get the modifications when (1) the Standard Modification indicates a race that is the race of the influencing character's or (2) the Standard Modification indicates a faction that is in play by either player.

Here, are my posts:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =45#p32403
Image

https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =60#p32431
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Contrary to your assertion, I have taken the position that it DOES matter whether the listed faction for the Standard Modification is in play.
Bandobras Took wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:08 pm The question was about whether to use the standard modifications of the card in play or the card you reveal.
Whether you use the modifications on the card in play or the revealed card was just 1 of the questions. There are 2 questions, with the first question having a specific follow up question.
ICE Digest 34 wrote: The situation presented - A hero character attempting to influencing away a minion faction.

Question 1: If a hero character is attempting to influence away a minion faction which standard modifications are used -- Is it those on the minion faction card or those on the hero faction card?
Answer 1: Always use the standard modifications listed on the faction card you are trying to influence.
Question 1 says nothing about revealing the hero faction. Perhaps this player is just unfamiliar with the game and they are wondering whether it is somehow possible to get the hero standard modifications without actually revealing the faction. If the standard modifications could never be used because of alignment differences, the Digest would have said so.
ICE Digest 34 wrote: The situation presented - A hero character attempting to influencing away a minion faction.

Question 2: Also, what happens if the hero player reveals the same faction?
Answer 2: Revealing the hero version of the faction has the same effects as revealing an identical faction: It reduces the value to bring the faction into play to zero, and allows you to play that faction if the influence check is successful.
Question 2 discusses the situation where the faction is revealed.


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And then you go on about the warning at the beginning of the section "Using MELE with METW" which states "Do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard’s perspective on things – passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar."
Bandobras Took wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:08 pm The rules already exist, and only a determination to fuse METW with MELE -- something we're told not to do -- would lead somebody to insist that a description of the proper way to play is somehow not indicative of the proper way to play, or that when a definition is provided at the beginning of a rules document, it's somehow invalid later on in the document.
Except that the MELE with METW rules explicitly say on p. 85 that the rules for a Wizard influencing a Ringwraith's resources are the same as when a Ringwraith influences a Ringwraith's resources. And also, the original METW rules say to use the modifications on the card, same as the MELE rules, same as the ICE Digest.

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Alignment was not an issue in METW so "applicable" in the rule for influencing an opponent's factions does not refer to alignments. The term "applicable" is also used when influencing your own factions. Nothing in any of the rulesbooks indicates that standard modifications in cross-alignment influence attempts are not "applicable." Instead, "applicable" refers to whether (1) the Standard Modification indicates a race that is the race of the influencing character's or (2) the Standard Modification indicates a faction that is in play by either player. The MELE rules and Balrog rules do not indicate that they change the meaning of this term as it applies to Standard Modifications.
METW Bringing a Faction Into Play, p. 39 wrote:Make a roll (2D6), add your character’s unused direct influence, and add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played)
METW Influencing an Opponent's Faction, p. 60 wrote:The influence check is modified by any of the faction’s applicable Standard Modifications (as
given on the faction’s card).
The rules give us examples when you are influencing your own factions. Sadly they don't give examples of influencing an opponent's factions.
METW p. 40 wrote:You tap Imrahil to attempt to bring the Knights of Col Amroth into play.
A standard modification of +1, because Imrahil is a Dúnadan and a standard modification of +1 is listed on the Knights of Dol Amroth card.
A standard modification of +1 is "applicable" because Imrahil is a Dúnadan.
MELE p. 39 wrote:You tap Lieutenant of Morgul to attempt to bring the Ice-orcs into play.
A standard modification of +2, because the Wargs of Forochel are already in play, as listed on the Ice-orcs card.
A standard modification of +2 is "applicable" because the Wargs of Forochel are already in play.

The MELE and Balrog rules never say that Standard Modifications are not "applicable" in cross-alignment influence attempts.

But again, how can a reader that alignment doesn't affect Standard Modifications? The MELE with METW rules tell us:
Using MELE with METW - Influence, p. 85 wrote:Influencing your opponent’s resources and characters is handled just as it is in METW and MELE with the following exceptions:
  • All influence checks are modified by -5; i.e., it is harder for evil characters to influence the Free Peoples and vice versa.
  • Instead of revealing a card that is identical to the card being influenced, you may reveal a manifestation of that card or the same resource of the opposing side (e.g., if attempting to influence away the Hillmen from a Wizard, you can reveal the Hillmen minion faction resource for full effect).
Wizard vs Wizard is the same as Ringwraith vs Ringwraith, is the same as Wizard vs Ringwraith, and the same Ringwraith vs Wiazard. You always use the Standard Modification on the card and the Standard Modification is always useable regardless of alignment as long as the Standard Modification matches the race of the influence attempter or a faction in play.

If wizard's did not receive the standard modifications on MELE cards becasue they are not Ringwraiths, the rules would say so here. Instead, the rules say that influencing is handled just as it is in MELE. That is, just as it is on page. 65 of the MELE rules that describe a Ringwraith character's influence attempts against an opponent Ringwraith's resources.

Bottom line: (1) you are interpreting a Ringwraith rule for playing factions using Standard Modifications as preventing Wizards from ever using Standard Modifications when influencing an opponent's factions. (2) You are relying on a Balrog rule for playing factions as clarifying the rules for influencing an opponent's factions.

What about the bulleted statements in the Corruption section. Is this a Ringwraith only rule? Does it not apply to Wizards? Or is it merely a new (changed) rule? Can a Rules Lawyer include METW Lure of Nature in his hero decks instead of MELE Lure of Nature so that he can argue how it's playable on Orcs since this statement below is a "Ringwraith only rule".
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Bandobras Took
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No. I never said that a player would get a modification whether or not the faction was in play.
It was merely your argument:
The Digest doesn't use the word "applicable." In response to the question it says wizards use the standard modifications listed on the minion card.
If I use the standard modifications on the minion card regardless of whether they are applicable, then it doesn't matter if the faction is in play. If applicability matters, then all rules for applicability matter. You can't have it both ways, however much you want to.

Since we differ on the word "applicable," I will not use that word.
Unfortunately, the rules do use that word. You can only add applicable standard modifications.

ap·pli·ca·ble
/ˈapləkəb(ə)l,əˈplikəb(ə)l/

adjective
relevant or appropriate.

Standard Modifiers that are irrelevant or inappropriate may not be added.
Question 1 says nothing about revealing the hero faction. Perhaps this player is just unfamiliar with the game and they are wondering whether it is somehow possible to get the hero standard modifications without actually revealing the faction. If the standard modifications could never be used because of alignment differences, the Digest would have said so.
If you're going to go that direction, then I'll do you one better:
Always use the standard modifications listed on the faction card you are trying to influence.
This says nothing whatsoever about alignment differences, so is not indicative either way.
Revealing the hero version of the faction has the same effects as revealing an identical faction: It reduces the value to bring the faction into play to zero, and allows you to play that faction if the influence check is successful.
This says nothing about standard modifications, so is not indicative either way.

After all, if it doesn't say it, it doesn't say it.
Influencing your opponent's resources and characters is handled just as it is in METW and MELE.
Exactly. Wizards use METW rules and RWs use MELE rules. It doesn't say anything about which standard modifications can be used.
Alignment was not an issue in METW so "applicable" in the rule for influencing an opponent's factions does not refer to alignments.
Agents could not be characters in MEDM, so the phrase "Agent Only" is meaningless. Same logic, equally ridiculous.
Nothing in any of the rulesbooks indicates that standard modifications in cross-alignment influence attempts are not "applicable."
MEBA wrote:any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)
MELE wrote:passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.
MELE wrote:Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.
METW wrote:Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon the race of the character that was tapped to make the influence check.
Influencing your opponent’s resources and characters is handled just as it is in METW and MELE
You're going to do a lot better in this discussion once you decide to stop lying through your teeth. Or start reading the rules. One of the two.

You need to stop looking at the rules where the prohibition isn't spelled out and start dealing with the rules where it is. Pretending they don't exist isn't really an argument, and nothing you list contradicts those rules in the slightest. Rather they support them. You still make influence checks the exact same way -- you check for applicable standard modifications and use the ones that apply.
What about the bulleted statements in the Corruption section. Is this a Ringwraith only rule?
Yes. An opponent can try to play whatever corruption cards he wants. A RW player simply will point to the relevant MELE rule and say, "That doesn't work on me, even though no METW rules forbid playing corruption cards on Orcs/RWs. Because I use MELE rules, not METW rules."

A FW will have to deal with that issue, though, because they don't inherit RW rules. Unless somebody decides that even more RW rules should apply to FWs regardless of what ICE intended.

What you think this has to do with the discussion, I'm not sure, since all it points out is that RW Only rules don't suddenly stop applying just because the opponent happens to be a Wizard or uses a given card.
Last edited by Bandobras Took on Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bandobras Took
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Actually, I'll simplify things immensely for you:
MEBA wrote:any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)
This is referring to the alignment of the influencer, as it stands, without reference to any other material. Why?

Because while factions may by *hero*, they are not heroes. Factions may be minion, but they are not minions.

Even when speaking of multiple factions, one speaks of "hero factions," not "heroes." The term "heroes" cannot be referring to anything other than characters, here.

Note that one cannot dismiss this as incorrect when there is a viable interpretation of every single other rule, comment, card text, and explanation in the game which leaves this one intact, but for now, let's just focus on this one.
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That Balrog statement is 100% true in the context in which it is given. Take a look at the heading. It is for playing faction. Heroes playing factions use standard modifications based on race. Minions playing factions use standard modifications based on the factions in play. They can't do otherwise because that is what is printed on their factions. Beasts of the Wood is an exception.

The METW and MELE sections you quoted are also from the rules for playing factions.

We are discussing influencing an opponents faction. All of the various rules for influencing an opponents faction say to use the Standard Modification on the card. The MELE with METW rules say to do the same. This rule for influencing an opponent's faction is indicated as being an EXCEPTION to the rules for playing factions.

The rules for playing factions to not override the explicit exception to those rules. No rules specifically say not to use the standard modifications printed on the card if the influence attempt is cross-alignment.
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No rules specifically say not to use the standard modifications printed on the card if the influence attempt is cross-alignment.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Influencing your opponent's resources and characters is handles just as it is in METW and MELE
The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card).
The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable "Standard Modifications" (as given on the faction's card).
Uh-oh. Looks like a disconnect in wording. Let's see if the Balrog Rules Summary can help us:
Apply any relevant standard modifications.
So, how do we find out which standard modifications are "relevant?"

rel·e·vant
/ˈreləvənt/

adjective
closely connected or appropriate to what is being done or considered.

Well, let's see. Nothing in the MELE rules on influencing an opponent's faction tell us which Standard Modifications are relevant. Or even applicable. There doesn't seem to be anything on how to determine it in the METW rules on influencing an opponent's faction, either! Even the Balrog rules on influencing opponent's factions don't tell us!

Oh, if only there were somewhere, somewhere in the rules that could explain what an "applicable" or "relevant" standard modification is, and whether such a standard modification was to be considered universal or specifically to be used by a given alignment. That could solve all our problems!

And if we were really getting greedy, we could ask ICE to mention it again somewhere in one of their last published rules summaries with clearer wording to eliminate the confusion that might arise with the language used in the previous rules. But let's not ask for too much, here.
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