WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

[Konrad Klar]

Player's Wizard is not the player.

[Bandobras Took]

You need not control a Wizard with influence-he represents you, the player.

[Konrad Klar]

You need not control a Wizard with influence-he represents you, the player.

If it requires a comment:
My representative is not me.
In case of doubt:
Wizard character may be eliminated, but its controlling player still exists, anyway.

[Theo]

"Place any such faction" wording on Sentinels of Numenor does not specify that it must be the faction card that was influenced. Influencing any version of the faction would count as the faction having been influenced, so as long as Sentinels of Numenor was in play when opponent's faction was influenced a faction revealed to assist in the attempt would be placed under Sentinels.

That seems to contradict what you stated previously:

Standard Modifications on a faction card apply when influencing that card

If I am not influencing my own copy of the faction, then it can't be one of the "such factions" I successfully influence, because I am not influencing them -- I am influencing my opponent's copy of them.

What is the contradiction you see?

Influencing a faction rules state that you add standard modifications listed on the faction card; i.e. the specific copy that is the target of the influence attempt. Sentinels of Numenor condition for placement of any faction only requires that you have influenced the faction entity (not specific card), which I interpret to mean any copy. Totally different mechanisms; no contradictions that I'm aware of.

If you are following a recipe that requires a cup of sugar and you go out and buy a bag of sugar, that does not mean that you can only use that newly-purchased sugar to make the recipe when any sugar (not salt, not flour, etc) would do [Sentinels of Numenor]. However, you better have paid the price on that specific bag of sugar when you bought it [modifications to influence check].

[Bandobras Took]

@ Theo: If I influence my opponent's faction, can I search through my play deck/discard pile/sideboard to find my copy of that card for Sentinels of Numenor? Since the only requirement is to influence a faction, and I clearly can't place my opponent's faction under the card, and there is no mention of playing a faction, this should be valid, correct?

@ Konrad: In terms of the game, if the Wizard is eliminated, so are you -- the rules state that you lose. Tournament conventions alter this to a -5 mp penalty.

Playable if you are Gandalf

Playable on one of your protected Wizardhavens if you are Radagast

Playable if you are Alatar

Playable if you are Pallando

Playable, if you are Saruman

You are Sauron, not a Ringwraith.

[Konrad Klar]

OK, you may consider yourself as your own avatar, if some logic indicates it.

Still it does not mean that if you are playing a (as) Wizard, your alignment is Wizard.

[Bandobras Took]

OK, you may consider yourself as your own avatar, if some logic indicates it.

Still it does not mean that if you are playing a (as) Wizard, your alignment is Wizard.

That's true. On the other hand, the Balrog summary as a whole completely ignores the FW alignment. (Notable examples: no mention of FW victory conditions, no mention of Stage Resources, no mention of FW starting sites, corruption checks for a FW, etc.) In the absence of such, the combination of the METW rules with the Balrog summary makes it is reasonable to assume that FW players follow the the standard modification rules for heroes.

[Konrad Klar]

Something must be thrown to save something else (or maybe rest).

I'm trowing the notion that:
"Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)"
is precise.
Heroes (both players and characters) are influencing hero factions, for which Standard Modifications refer to a race of influencer.
Minions (both players and characters) are influencing minion factions, for which Standard Modifications refer to presence of listed factions in play.
But they are just typical cases.
Sometimes both players and characters are cross-influencing. FW players and FW' characters are influencing and cross-influencing both types of factions (and FW factions, which do not have Standard Modifications, at least currently).

Like in case of A Chance Meeting, if to replace a reference to Hobbits with reference to a characters that may not be brought into play outside theirs home sites, the things will return to norm (and Fram Framson will be included).

If to replace:
"Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)"
with
"Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (against hero factions) or the other factions in play (against minions factions), (. . .)"
nothing else will need to be accommodated (or I missing something?).

What you will need to throw, or accommodate to save a literal sense of:
"Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)"
?

[Theo]

@ Theo: If I influence my opponent's faction, can I search through my play deck/discard pile/sideboard to find my copy of that card for Sentinels of Numenor? Since the only requirement is to influence a faction, and I clearly can't place my opponent's faction under the card, and there is no mention of playing a faction, this should be valid, correct?

Nothing on Sentinels indicates that you search or find anything, or that you place from your hand or other not-in-play location, so no. You must still bring the faction into play via some other means, then it is placed under Sentinels.

Likewise, Wizard's Staff does not allow you to place another Wizard's Staff not already in play into your marshaling point pile. Summons From Long Sleep does not allow you to place a Dragon/Drake not already in play... actually this one probably needs another errata to prevent a creature that just attacked from being reserved (unless that was the actual intent...?).

[Bandobras Took]

You're right; I was misremembering a couple of other cards. My apologies. The idea that you're not actually influencing whatever card you happen to play as a result of an influence attempt is a little odd. I'll think about it some more.

[Bandobras Took]

@ Konrad: I think the fact that ICE bulleted the faction influence rules makes their intent clear: RW faction influence is not supposed to be the same as Wizard faction influence. An interpretation which allows all factions to use all rules goes against this intent.

Standard modifications as result of player alignment is consistent, and needs only to have Fallen-Wizards use the same rules as Wizards (hero, by tournament conventions), which they're supposed to do anyway when in doubt.

[Konrad Klar]

@ Konrad: I think the fact that ICE bulleted the faction influence rules makes their intent clear: RW faction influence is not supposed to be the same as Wizard faction influence. An interpretation which allows all factions to use all rules goes against this intent.

Correct or not, the fragment of Balrog Summary is at least a rule. What was bulleted in Lidless Eye it were some statistics.
Intentions of ICE are not so clear for me. As you noticed recently in Detainment attacks, the rules concerning detainment attacks are bulleted. In the same edition a cards that create detainment attacks against hero companies are introduced, leaving a hero players with no rules to deal with such attacks.

Standard modifications as result of player alignment is consistent, and needs only to have Fallen-Wizards use the same rules as Wizards (hero, by tournament conventions), which they're supposed to do anyway when in doub

Consistently used they mean that minion player influencing Ents of Fangorn benefices from presence the Hobbits faction in play (while influencing Hobbits faction itself too).

[Konrad Klar]

Summons From Long Sleep does not allow you to place a Dragon/Drake not already in play...

What?

[Bandobras Took]

@ Konrad: I think the fact that ICE bulleted the faction influence rules makes their intent clear: RW faction influence is not supposed to be the same as Wizard faction influence. An interpretation which allows all factions to use all rules goes against this intent.

Correct or not, the fragment of Balrog Summary is at least a rule. What was bulleted in Lidless Eye it were some statistics.
Intentions of ICE are not so clear for me. As you noticed recently in Detainment attacks, the rules concerning detainment attacks are bulleted. In the same edition a cards that create detainment attacks against hero companies are introduced, leaving a hero players with no rules to deal with such attacks.

Which is why there is a CRF entry for detainment.

Let's take a closer look at the "statistics."

Clarification: Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon the race of the character that was tapped to make the influence check. Similarly, certain characters have special modifications to influence checks. Such a modification only applies if it belongs to the character that was tapped to make the influence check.

And then:

Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.

This is bulleted to show that it is to be treated differently than METW.

Do not to [sic] confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things - passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.

ICE could not have made their intent any clearer in putting a line of bullets by portions of the rulebook that contain elements that differ markedly from METW. They explicitly say to not do what you are doing -- confusing elements of play that are specific to wizards and ringwraiths, respectively.

I don't think the Balrog rule can be read as applying to factions rather than the influencer, either.

Characters in Wizard decks are called heroes, and characters in Ringwraith decks are called minions.

There is no such definition for resources in the summary. If we are to use the Summary's own definition, then Wizards and FWs still never use Standard Modifications based on the presence of other factions because, so far as I know, neither one of them can ever have a minion character.

Standard modifications as result of player alignment is consistent, and needs only to have Fallen-Wizards use the same rules as Wizards (hero, by tournament conventions), which they're supposed to do anyway when in doub

Consistently used they mean that minion player influencing Ents of Fangorn benefices from presence the Hobbits faction in play (while influencing Hobbits faction itself too).

Yes.

[CDavis7M]

We're starting to go in circles. Let's get to something productive.

Little did we know back then...

But still, the Ents of Fangorn and Hobbits hypothetical got me laughing. So this discussion was worth it. Thanks guys.

Anyway, there is a way to interpret all of the rules consistently.

Most faction cards list some “standard modifications” to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.

Do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things - passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.

Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)

Influencing an Opponent's Faction
To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence
check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:
• Instead of a mind attribute, the influence check uses the value required to bring the faction into play (as given on the faction's card).
• The influence check is modified by any of the faction's applicable modifications (as given on the faction's card).

The internally consistent interpretation:

• Ringwraiths get standard modification bonuses/penalties for influencing factions based on hero and minion factions in play. For example, a minion player playing minion Wain-easterlings would get +2 for the hero Easterlings faction being in play. (yes, I know the standard modification rules is a bulleted "ringwraith only rule").
• When influencing an opponents faction, you use the standard modifications on that card. It is the type of the card that matters, not the alignment of the influencer. For example, when a Ringwraith's character attempts to influence an opponent's HERO Men of Dorwinion, they get the +1 standard modification if that minion character is a Man. To further this example, say the RW play reveals the minion version of Men of Dorwinion while the Easterlings is in play. The character does not receive the -2 standard modification from the minion version because it is the hero version being influenced. Similarly, a hero character would receive faction-based bonuses/penalties when influencing a minion faction.
• Of course the word "Hobbits" on the hero faction Ents of Fangorn refers to the Hobbit race and not the Hobbits faction.

Yes, bulleted rules are "Ringwraith only rules." But that just means they apply to ringwraiths. If you contort these rules beyond belief then you end up with 59 posts.


But back to the original post. It proposes changing the rules. I see no reason to change the rules when they are clear enough. Perhaps this idea should be submitted as a UEP (if that is still a thing).