WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:45 pm
The author knows that most everyone playing MELE will understand how to interpret standard modifications on hero cards. The author knows that the reader understands what "Dúnedain (+1)" means from METW. The author knows that the Standard Rules in both METW and the Standard rules in MELE, say to use the modifications "as given on the faction's card." And the author knows that "Using MELE with METW" tells players in a Ringwraith v. Wizard game to use the modifications "as given" on the other alignment's faction card. Thus, the rules work because the author knows that the players will use the modifiers on the cards based on their experience playing METW.

How could the author have intended for a player to forget what "Dúnedain (+1)" means simply because it is in the METW book? If the author really didn't want Ringwraith vs. Wizard players to get modifiers "as given on the faction's card" the author would have written something about it in "Using MELE with METW." But the author did not.

The reader cannot follow the meticulous technicalities of your interpretation and it is clear that the author did not intended them to.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:35 pm
No. My entire post is made up.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Sam.Gamdschie
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Sam.Gamdschie »

Hi Guys,

it seems that this discussion is more or less stucked: The same arguments are taken into the discussion and it gets much to personal.
So maybe we should break up here present two (or three options) to be voted on:

It's clear (I hope) that Standard Modification for minion factions are based on factions in play, and that Standard Modifications for hero factions are based on the influencing character's race.

So the thing to decide upon, which is a clarification from my point of view, is, which type of standard modification is used when an influence attempt between hero and minion (either minion character is influencing a hero faction or vice versa) takes place.
The options are (please or correct):
- In this special case the standard modifications of the card in play count using the alignment of the card in play. So, if a minion character tries to influence a hero faction, the modifications printed on the card based on the character's race count.
- In this special case the values on the card in play count but they are interpreted for the alignment of the influencing character. So, if a minion character tries to influence a hero faction, the modification as printed on the card count but for factions already in play.
. In this special case, the value of the faction card of the same alignment count (if exisiting). So, if a minion character tries to influence a hero faction, check for the values printed on the minion version of the faction which are based on the factions already in play.
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

That's it in a nutshell. The reasoning for each is:

1) for using the alignment of the card in play, this is clearly the most intuitive, as that's how everybody's been assuming it works. This would cause the least confusion for new players.

2) for using the alignment of the player/influencer, this is the one most fully supported by the rules. (Objectively speaking, all the arguments that the rules are against this have relied on an absence of direct statements rather than their presence. The argument of presence is innately stronger.)

3) using the value of the resource for your alignment, is, so far as I know, not permitted, and resorting to checking cards in play would be a drag on game flow.

Option 1 would be an update to the rules. Option 2 would be a clarification. Option 3 seems to present neither the advantage from 1 nor the advantage from 2.

Personally speaking, I think option 2 is the best. ICE intended the different alignments to play differently, and there are any number of rules in the game that new players are likely to find counterintuitive, so the largest advantage of 1 doesn't strike me as that important.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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CDavis7M
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

ICE Rules Digest 34 wrote:From: Michael <Micha...@xtra.co.nz>
>A question about influencing away factions on an opposing side:
>
>If a hero character is attempting to influence away a minion faction
>which standard modifications are used? Is it those on the minion faction
>card or those on the hero faction card? Also, what happens if the hero
>player reveals the same faction?


Always use the standard modifications listed on the faction card you are trying to influence.
Revealing the hero version of the faction has the same effects as revealing an identical faction: It reduces the value to bring the faction into play to zero, and allows you to play that faction if the influence check is succesful.
Van Norton, Sept 23, 1999 wrote:I don't think MECCG should be changed at all. The last expansion was nearly a year ago and, for the most part, there haven't been a lot of new questions. The CRF is set and most answers can be found there if one looks hard enough. It seems to me that any changes the Council devised would hurt MECCG more than they would help. After all, the more different version of MECCG floating around out there, the more divided and factional the game will become.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

I like the Van Norton quote. If only because it serves as a reminder that no questions on something now doesn't mean no questions on something in the future. And the game managed to become just as divided and factional simply because half of the players were basing their rules and rulings on the player's guides and half were basing theirs on the card text.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Theo
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Theo »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:55 pm
1) for using the alignment of the card in play, this is clearly the most intuitive, as that's how everybody's been assuming it works. This would cause the least confusion for new players.
I have issues with all of these claims. :roll:
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Bandobras Took »

Theo wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:10 am
Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:55 pm
1) for using the alignment of the card in play, this is clearly the most intuitive, as that's how everybody's been assuming it works. This would cause the least confusion for new players.
I have issues with all of these claims. :roll:
I do, to, but who wants another 8 pages of debate? ;)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Konrad Klar
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Re: WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by Konrad Klar »

I am withdrawing the proposal, due to too many disagreements in underlying questions.

EDIT:
"due too" -> "due to too"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

Post by CDavis7M »

Of course wizard players use standard modifications based on the factions in play when influencing a minion faction:
ICE Net Rep wrote:Question: A question about influencing away factions on an opposing side:
If a hero character is attempting to influence away a minion faction which standard modifications are used? Is it those on the minion faction card or those on the hero faction card? Also, what happens if the hero player reveals the same faction?


Answer: Use the modifications on the card you are influencing. Revealing the same faction works as usual.

(NB. this question has also been posted on the metw mailing list) Note: the answer is also in Rules Digest 34.


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ICE Digest 34 wrote:Question: A question about influencing away factions on an opposing side:
If a hero character is attempting to influence away a minion faction which standard modifications are used? Is it those on the minion faction card or those on the hero faction card? Also, what happens if the hero player reveals the same faction?


Answer: Always use the standard modifications listed on the faction card you are trying to influence. Revealing the hero version of the faction has the same effects as revealing an identical faction: It reduces the value to bring the faction into play to zero, and allows you to play that faction if the influence check is successful.

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