Council of Elrond

Standard Modifications that refer to presence in play of other faction(s) symbolize prejudices and sympathies between a faction to be played and faction(s) listed under Standard Modifications.

Corsairs of Rhûn are more willing to serve in the same army in which Easterlings serve, less willing if Men of Dorwinion serve in the same army.

The symbolics is ruined when Standard Modifications refer to a faction under control of player of opposite alignment.
The symbolics is also ruined when a faction in play is influenced away by player of the same alignment.

To preserve the symbolics I propose the following regulations:

"If for a faction to be played there is in play a faction listed under Standard Modifications, but under control of a player of opposite alignment, then a value of the modifier for presence in play of the faction is reversed.

If for faction already in play that is influenced away there is in play a faction listed under Standard Modifications, then a value of the modifier for presence in play of the faction is reversed"

This means that in some situations the values may be double reversed (returned to original state). E.g. if company of FW/hero player tries to influence away of Corsairs of Rhûn under control of minion player and hero Men of Dorwinion is in play the Standard Modifications for presence of Men of Dorwinion will be -2.
(Earlier Corsairs of Rhûn was more willing to serve in Sauron's army, because their foes - Men of Dorwinion - were serving for Free Peoples, now for the same reason they are less willing to leave the Sauron's army).

EDIT:
was serving -> were serving
EDIT 2:
I am withdrawing the proposal, due too many disagreements in underlying questions.
EDIT 2a:
I am withdrawing the proposal, due to too many disagreements in underlying questions.

I've decided to rewrite whole post for clarity. Proposed regulations are not changed.

Standard Modifications that refer to presence in play of other faction(s) symbolize prejudices and sympathies between a faction to be played and faction(s) listed under Standard Modifications.

Corsairs of Rhûn are more willing to serve in the same army in which Easterlings serve, less willing if Men of Dorwinion serve in the same army.

The symbolics is ruined when Standard Modifications refer to a faction under control of player of opposite alignment.
The symbolics is also ruined when a faction in play is influenced away.

To preserve the symbolics I propose the following regulations:

"If for a faction to be played there is in play a faction listed under Standard Modifications, but under control of a player of opposite alignment, then a value of the modifier for presence in play of the faction is reversed.

If for faction already in play that is influenced away there is in play a faction listed under Standard Modifications, then a value of the modifier for presence in play of the faction is reversed"

This means that in some situations the values may be double reversed (the sign [+/-] is returned to original state). E.g. if company tries to influence away of Corsairs of Rhûn under control of minion player and hero Men of Dorwinion are in play, the Standard Modifications for presence of Men of Dorwinion will be negative (normally "-2"; with Old Prejudices "-6").
(Earlier Corsairs of Rhûn were more willing to serve in Sauron's army, because their foes - Men of Dorwinion - were serving for Free Peoples, now for the same reason they are less willing to leave the Sauron's army).

I don't know that this is necessary.

A faction under the control of a Wizard player may represent a larger threat than normal, causing a faction to be unwilling to march at a RW's behest.

FWs do not use Standard Modifications based on the presence of other factions.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:47 pm FWs do not use Standard Modifications based on the presence of other factions.

According to what rule?

MEWH wrote:When you play a Fallen-wizard, assume that your Fallen-wizard is a METW "Wizard". All of the normal METW rules apply except for the specific exceptions outlined in these rules. The ME:LE rules that concern Wizards also apply to Fallen-wizards.

MELE, Bulleted Rule wrote: STANDARD MODIFICATIONS
Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.

Wizards do not use bulleted LE rules.

Explicit in the Balrog turn summary:

Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or the other factions in play (minions), (. . .)

FW are not minion. Unless the votes decide to make more errata in order to pretend that FWs are intended to play the same way as RWs. (I still can't figure out why only the orc/troll rules were changed.)

MELE, Bulleted Rule wrote: STANDARD MODIFICATIONS
Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.

The statement does not oblige anyone to anything.

Like the statement:

White Hand, Overview, Orcs & Trolls wrote:Because most Fallen-wizard characters will not be Orcs and Trolls, specific rules
concerning Orc and Troll characters are collected in one section at the end of these
rules.

does not oblige a FW players to care about about the prognosis. Their Orcs and Trolls may be may be majority of their characters.

FW player is not minion, is not hero. Since Lidless Eye, minion players may make an influence attempts against a hero factions controlled by their opponents, hero players may make an influence attempts against a minion factions controlled by their opponents.

Which is why I posted the explicit Balrog statement. That, combined with the METW/MELE statements on influencing factions, leaves no doubt.

Standard modifications of Beasts of the Wood, and Wild Hounds leave some doubts. Both faction may be played either as hero, or as minion.
And if "(heroes)", "(minions)" would refer to characters, then Orcs and Trolls under control of FW player would perform influence attempts against factions in different way than other characters under control of the same FW player.

It refers to the player. If you are a wizard, you influence factions as a hero according to the METW rules.

If you are a RW, you influence factions as a minion according to the MELE rules.

This is why the MELE section is written differently than the METW section, and bulleted to indicate that this is specific to playing a RW.

Do not confuse an element of MELE that is particular to playing a Ringwraith with a Wizard's perspective on things - passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar.

Far too many people think that the rules should be uniform for character cards, when such has never been the case (see: silly FW Orc/Troll Erratum), or that the character's alignment determines which rules you use. This is incorrect. Wizard players use one set of rules. RW players use a different set of rules. The two rulesets can overlap and interact in the course of the game, but they are not the same, and it does not matter what characters or resources you are using -- your player type is set, and that is what determines which rules you use.

As for the animal factions, yes, they are an outlier, but one that does not affect the basic principle. My hunch is that they should have simply read "Modifications" as do Dragon Cards.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:56 pm It refers to the player. If you are a wizard, you influence factions as a hero according to the METW rules.

If so, FW player is not covered by the Balrog rule.

MELE, Bulleted Rule, Standard Modifications even does not define anything. It makes a sense that the sentence is bulleted, because overall statistics is different (Most faction cards do not list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players).

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:32 am

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:56 pm It refers to the player. If you are a wizard, you influence factions as a hero according to the METW rules.

If so, FW player is not covered by the Balrog rule.

Of course not. The Balrog rule merely clarifies the rule a FW *is* covered by:

Most faction cards list some "standard modifications" to the influence check based only upon the race of the character that was tapped to make the influence check.

We're starting to go in circles. Let's get to something productive.

Ignore White Hand. Assume we're back at Just MELE.

As RW player, I go to Wellinghall to influence my opponent's Ents of Fangorn faction. My opponent has the Hobbits faction in play.
Do I, as a RW player, get a +4 standard modification to the influence attempt as listed on the faction card?

Later on, I go to influence my opponent's Hillmen faction. I reveal my own Hillmen faction.
Assuming I use a man character to influence, do I get the +1 standard modification for the race of the influencer? Do I also get the +2 standard modification assuming the Dunlendings are in play?

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:09 pm As RW player, I go to Wellinghall to influence my opponent's Ents of Fangorn faction. My opponent has the Hobbits faction in play.
Do I, as a RW player, get a +4 standard modification to the influence attempt as listed on the faction card?

If influencing character is hobbit, then yes.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:09 pm Later on, I go to influence my opponent's Hillmen faction. I reveal my own Hillmen faction.
Assuming I use a man character to influence, do I get the +1 standard modification for the race of the influencer? Do I also get the +2 standard modification assuming the Dunlendings are in play?

I think that you will get +1 standard modification for the race of the influencer.
You will not get any modifiers for revealed faction. You are performing an influence attempt against a faction in play, not against faction you have revealed. At this point it is not even known whether you will play the revealed card after successful attempt.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:22 pm

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:09 pm As RW player, I go to Wellinghall to influence my opponent's Ents of Fangorn faction. My opponent has the Hobbits faction in play.
Do I, as a RW player, get a +4 standard modification to the influence attempt as listed on the faction card?

If influencing character is hobbit, then yes.

On what basis are you overlooking the bullets from MELE and the explicitness of the Balrog summary? The influencing character's race doesn't matter for RW. Normally I don't give much credence to the summaries, but usually that is because they summarize (overly simplify), but in this case it adds clarification to the MELE bullets.

"Modifications" vs. "Standard Modifications" is irrelevant for the purpose of hero/minion alignment. Underline mine:

MELE Standard Modifications wrote:Certain factions (like Dragon factions) have simple Modifications which affect an influence check the same way, but do not count as Standard Modifications as a keyword (like when interpreting Old Prejudice).

Theo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:15 pm On what basis are you overlooking the bullets from MELE and the explicitness of the Balrog summary?

I'm not overlooking the bullets from MELE - they do not oblige anyone to anything, they just state about peculiarities of majority of minion factions.
I think that Balrog summary (not only in the fragment) is incomplete and inaccurate. Whether to interpret "(heroes)", "(minions)" as alignment of players (lack of coverage of FW player), or whether to interpret it as race of influencer (lack of coverage of Radagast's Black Bird).
And it ignores not typical Standard Modifications, as present in texts of Beasts of the Wood, and Wild Hounds.

Sloppy wording elevated to a rank of precise rule.

Besides in the fragment describing an influencing of opponent faction Balrog summary states:

"Apply any relevant standard modification"

It does not specify, which standard modification are relevant at this point.