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Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:34 pm
by Konrad Klar
Texts of some site cards state that certain creatures may be played as an automatic-attack. They state that the creatures must be normally keyed to some site or region symbol(s)*. "Normally" includes an additional conditions stated in creature's card text. This greatly extends a range of possible creatures (e.g. Rain-drake may be normally keyed to [-me_rl-] if site has [-me_wi-] [-me_wi-], or [-me_cs-] in its path).
This does not seem as intentional approach.

Proposed regulation:

"Creatures that can be played as an automatic-attack and that must be keyed to listed site or region symbol(s), may be only played as an automatic-attack if they are normally keyable to the site or region symbol(s) without additional conditions."

Related thread:
Creature playability interactions


*) Yes. Hero Framsburg site card allows to play as an automatic attack a creature keyed to multiple [-me_sl-].

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:59 pm
by Theo
Throwing out anything with a condition seems like too big of a shift. If any change is necessary (maybe folks with more competition experience could weigh in?), I think the natural re-interpretation should be that the keyability conditions must be satisfied as they would normally to actually be able to key. Rain-drake or Giant Spiders at an Underdeeps site would be out; Morgul-rats against a party with someone wounded could still work.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:25 pm
by Konrad Klar
I think that I understand what you are saying.
However a text of regulation that would exclude Rain-drake or Giant Spiders, and not exclude Morgul-rats (with someone wounded, or if Doors of Night is in play) would be very complex.
Maybe you will propose such text?

P.S.
I do not see an essential difference between additional playability conditions of Rain-drake or Giant Spiders and "with someone wounded" condition of Morgul-rats.
Likewise Rain-drake or Giant Spiders played as AA are not played at site with AA, also Morgul-rats is not played against company facing AA, so "someone wounded" in company facing the AA is so relevant as existence of [-me_rl-], [-me_sh-], or [-me_dh-] in regions listed on Giant Spiders. Irrelevant.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:49 pm
by Theo
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:25 pm
Morgul-rats is not played against company facing AA, so "someone wounded" in company facing the AA is so relevant as existence of [-me_rl-], [-me_sh-], or [-me_dh-] in regions listed on Giant Spiders. Irrelevant.
CRF wrote:Company composition and overt/covert status is checked before each automatic attack.
Seems to indicate that company is known to be facing AA, so wounded condition should be checkable when creating a Morgul-rats automatic attack.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:04 pm
by Konrad Klar
OK.
Proposed regulation:

"Creatures that can be played as an automatic-attack and that must be keyed to listed site or region symbol(s), may be only played as an automatic-attack if they are normally keyable to the site or region symbol(s) without additional conditions that cannot be satisfied by company facing an automatic-attack, or by global effects in play."

Satisfied? :)

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:14 pm
by Theo
Indeed. :D

I was simultaneously working on generalizing beyond automatic-attacks, something like:
"Hazard creatures which specify additional dependencies to be keyed to a site or region must be able to satisfy those additional dependencies for other effects that require the creature to be keyable to the site or region. For example, Nameless Thing can be played as the second automatic-attack at Remains of Thangorodrim if (and requiring) Doors of Night is in play."

Nameless Thing seems especially weird since it creates 3 attacks in one automatic-attack. :twisted:

I'd need to hunt for whether the generality would matter, but conceptually I wouldn't want automatic-attack requirements to work differently from other effects.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:20 pm
by Konrad Klar
I prefer my proposal. :wink:
I also prefer a separating a text of rule/clarification/regulation from examples.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:55 pm
by Konrad Klar
Theo wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:49 pm
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:25 pm
Morgul-rats is not played against company facing AA, so "someone wounded" in company facing the AA is so relevant as existence of [-me_rl-], [-me_sh-], or [-me_dh-] in regions listed on Giant Spiders. Irrelevant.
CRF wrote:Company composition and overt/covert status is checked before each automatic attack.
Seems to indicate that company is known to be facing AA, so wounded condition should be checkable when creating a Morgul-rats automatic attack.
This also means that Morgul-rats may be (under some conditions) played as second AA, but if after facing of 1st AA there is no wounded character in company and Doors of Night is not in play, the company will not face the second AA.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:41 pm
by Theo
No creature can be played as the second automatic attack until that automatic attack is started.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:27 am
by Konrad Klar
Theo wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:41 pm
No creature can be played as the second automatic attack until that automatic attack is started.
From what the opinion?

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:29 pm
by Bandobras Took
I would say because until you are facing an attack, none of its abilities apply -- including any abilities that define the attack itself.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:31 pm
by Theo
These second automatic-attacks are "effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks" (CRF Tidings of Bold Spies). The effect isn't triggered until the attack is to be faced. Consistent between CoE #59, CoE #67, CoE #97. Underline mine:
CoE #67 wrote:Playing a hazard creature from your hand as a 2nd automatic-attack at an
underdeeps site:
a) Does it count against the hazard limit?
b) When is this card being played? I) when opponents company enters the
site during the site phase?
II) during the m/h phase?

c) What happens if Tidings of Bold Spies is being played during the m/h
phase? Do you play that creature for the 2nd auto-attack now?

*** a) No.
b) Neither. It's played when the attack is to be faced.
c) CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Tidings of Bold Spies:
Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow
certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:48 pm
by Konrad Klar
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:29 pm
I would say because until you are facing an attack, none of its abilities apply -- including any abilities that define the attack itself.
I do not understand what you are saying.

Second AA at minion Dol Amroth is "Dunedain - 3 strikes with 10 prowess (against overt company only)"
It must be known what is the race of the attack when company enters the site, because it must be known at this point whether Chill Them with Fear placed on-guard may be revealed or not.

If company is not overt after finishing combat with 1st AA, then it will not face the 2nd AA.

@Theo
Thanks for answer. I disagree with the rulings you quoted. For a reasons described above.
Also I think that:
Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow
certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.
does not say about 2nd AA of Under-deeps (nor about first AA of hero Framsburg); they are actual AAs.
I think that it says about special abilities of some sites that allow to play as an additional AA a Nazgûl, that is in play as permanent-event.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:11 pm
by Bandobras Took
You're misunderstanding. Dol Amroth's attack exists or does not depending on whether the company entering the site is overt or not. But the attack itself has clearly defined attributes and no special ability as such.

A special ability on an automatic-attack (say, the Balrog's special ability to remove itself if its attack is defeated) only kicks in when the attack is being faced -- that's the only context in which it can be relevant.

Therefore, a special ability that lets somebody reveal a creature card as an attack will only happen in the context of facing the attack. Nothing else would require it or initiate it.

Re: Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:23 pm
by Konrad Klar
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:11 pm
You're misunderstanding. Dol Amroth's attack exists or does not depending on whether the company entering the site is overt or not. But the attack itself has clearly defined attributes and no special ability as such.

A special ability on an automatic-attack (say, the Balrog's special ability to remove itself if its attack is defeated) only kicks in when the attack is being faced -- that's the only context in which it can be relevant.

Therefore, a special ability that lets somebody reveal a creature card as an attack will only happen in the context of facing the attack. Nothing else would require it or initiate it.
So (in your opinion) it is impossible to reveal the Fool of Froth and Rage placed as on-guard when a company enters The Under-grottos, because at the point no AA at this site is Spider or Animal attack?