Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Master of Wood, Water, or Hill wrote:Ritual. Tap a sage to change one Wilderness [-me_wi-] to a Border-land [-me_bl-] or Shadow-land [-me_sl-] or one Shadow-land [-me_sl-] to a Wilderness [-me_wi-] or one Border-land [-me_bl-] to a Wilderness [-me_wi-] . Sage makes a corruption check. '...No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear.' -LotRI
Bold original.

Text of the card does not specify any duration of its effect. I think that it is a mistake.

I propose the following erratum:

"Ritual. Tap a sage to change until end of turn one Wilderness [-me_wi-] to a Border-land [-me_bl-] or Shadow-land [-me_sl-] or one Shadow-land [-me_sl-] to a Wilderness [-me_wi-] or one Border-land [-me_bl-] to a Wilderness [-me_wi-] . Sage makes a corruption check. '...No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear.' -LotRI"
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Theo
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Theo »

Aligns with:
CoE #118 wrote:(9) Joe Bisz asked: "When Master of Wood, Water, and Hill is played (see text below), I assume that the change in the region symbol it creates lasts until the end of the turn, such that if a company take multiple m/h phases through the same region, the region symbol is still changed? (Miguel thought so.) Is the region also considered changed for ALL of your companies, in case other companies decide to move through that changed region?"

Miguel was right. And to answer your follow-up question: yes.
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Zakath
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Zakath »

Also with an earlier digest, #31:
Rulings Digest 31 wrote:If a short event's text doesn't indicate a duration for its effect, the effect lasts until the end of the turn
It seems like there was an understanding once that short-events inherently did not last beyond the current turn. Perhaps a new, official clarification to that effect would accomplish more than issuing errata for one specific card?

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CDavis7M
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by CDavis7M »

Zakath, I reviewed many (but not all) hero short events and cannot find any exceptions (that have not received errata) other than Master of Wood Water or Hill. I haven't looked at the minion events. Do you have any other cards in mind?

Every short event that I've seen either:

-- is limited to a particular time frame (for the rest of the turn; until the end of the turn, like the elven rings)
-- is limited to a particular temporary sequence/action (an attack, a corruption check, an influence attempt, etc)
-- provides some immediate effect (untapping, searching a deck, making a card playable, healing, etc)
-- indicates a particular site being moved to, or
-- doesn't indicate a time frame, or a particular site, but is only playable at the end of the organization phase (Horses with errata, Ancient Stair, Hey Come Merry Dol, Ford, etc).

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the JabberwocK
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by the JabberwocK »

I agree with Zakath.

I would prefer to issue a clarification which states that any short event that doesn't specify a duration will last until the end of the current turn.

Zakath
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Zakath »

CDavis, the reason I had that digest ready to recall when I saw this topic is I went digging for a ruling on short-events to understand how to interpret the minion resource Come By Night Upon Them, as I was considering including it in a deck. It is another one that doesn't have any text expressing how long its effect lasts.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by CDavis7M »

You're right! Instead of targeting the attack it targets the site. I guess this also brings into question Bounty of the Hoard, which is "playable during the site phase" but not expressly limited to that particular site phase.

Come by Night Upon Them seems to be worded more like a permanent event that would be played on a site.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:29 pm
You're right! Instead of targeting the attack it targets the site. I guess this also brings into question Bounty of the Hoard, which is "playable during the site phase" but not expressly limited to that particular site phase.

Come by Night Upon Them seems to be worded more like a permanent event that would be played on a site.

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I think that an item played in result of Bounty of the Hoard, may be played only at time of execution of Bounty of the Hoard in chain of effects.
If so, defining in the text of the card a period in which the item may be played, would be inappropriate.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by CDavis7M »

I've been playing with this card recently. A fun card.

The effect does not necessarily last until the end of the turn. You can tell because of how it's played. When using region movement, the effect of Master of Wood, Water, or Hill lasts until the region card having the targeted region type symbol is removed from play at the end of a company's Movement/Hazard phase.

If the site's site-path is targeted, it is unclear whether the effect lasts as long as the site is in play or if it should only last until the end of the turn. This is the same issue as Deeper Shadow, which was ruled by ICE to last until the end of the turn. Which makes sense. Neither are long or permanent events.

I don't think a second company using region movement should benefit from the effect. I am against the errata.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Some may believe that a type of region is undefined if the region is not used (e.g. in company's site path).
I'm wishing them a finding the consistency of playing style with the belief. (How to play Wondrous Maps if it is not known whether last region in company's site path is [-me_sl-] ; maybe to use try and error method?).

The proposal is agnostic against such belief.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:09 am
Some may believe that a type of region is undefined if the region is not used (e.g. in company's site path).
If a region card is not in play, then the region-type symbol of that region is not in play. The normal type of the region may be known to the player (by checking the region card) even if the region is not in play.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:09 am
How to play Wondrous Maps if it is not known whether last region in company's site path is [-me_sl-] ; maybe to use try and error method?.
You know that Wondrous Maps requires region cards to be played face up. The regions played face with Wondrous Maps may be checked to determine whether the last region is a Shadow-land as required.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:19 am
You know that Wondrous Maps requires region cards to be played face up. The regions played face with Wondrous Maps may be checked to determine whether the last region is a Shadow-land as required.
So if Angmar is not in any path in play then it is considered [-me_sl-] regardless of anything (Morgul Night, Girdle of Radagast on site in adjacent region)?
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CDavis7M
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:30 am
So if Angmar is not in any path in play then it is considered [-me_sl-] regardless of anything (Morgul Night, Girdle of Radagast on site in adjacent region)?
If Angmar is not in play, then the effect of Master of Wood, Water, or Hill is not able to change Angmar's region-type symbol because the effect cannot target an out-of-play entity.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Master of Wood, Water, or Hill

Post by Konrad Klar »

Not exactly answer to my question.
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