Skill cards target character with skill

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Theo
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Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Theo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:16 am

As discussed to some length starting around: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 660#p29613

I believe skills cards (particularly in the early sets) were created to implicitly require targeting a character with the skill as an active condition for playing the card.

This means that:
* you can't use your opponent's skill character to play your own card, which would otherwise be allowed;
* you can't change which skill character is referenced in the card's text between declaring the play of the card and it eventually resolving, which some might argue would otherwise be allowed;
* the removal from play of the targeted skill character (the one playing the card, according to the CRF) or the removal of that character's skill will prevent the resolution of the card, which some might argue could otherwise resolve.

This proposal (addition underlined) is to make the implicit rules explicit:
CRF wrote:"(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill. This means that satisfying the skill requirement of a card requires targeting a character with that skill.
---

Without this proposed clarification:
Some players have contested that Old Friendship and New Friendship can use your opponent's Diplomat to satisfy the "Diplomat only." requirement of the card. That is, according to the CRF, your card is being "played by" your opponent's character. Further, the CRF clarifications on these cards cannot be interpreted, since there is no "the diplomat" target. Another implication is that even though such cards are "played by"(existing CRF) certain characters when active conditions of the card are checked at play declaration, the cards can be "played by" entirely different characters when active conditions are checked at play resolution.

Similarly, you can use your opponent's Diplomat (anywhere) to satisfy Lordly Presence.

Similarly, Many Turns and Doublings can use your opponent's Ranger. See this alternative proposal to correct this particular situation by treating it as a one-off: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3677

Similarly, Risky Blow can use the paired opponent's Warrior skill in CvCC to give presumably-anything-you-want (including your character) +3 to prowess and -1 to body against a strike.

[edits: added Lordly Presence example]
Last edited by Theo on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make---or one online community. Cautious skill!

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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:27 am

This isn't entirely accurate.
MELE wrote:Condition, Active: A prerequisite for an action actively made by a player. Typically this involves tapping a character, discarding an item, or having a character of a particular skill in play.
You do not have your opponent's characters in play, so they cannot be used as active conditions for your resource cards.

Overall, I believe the quote from the MELE rulebook covers potential abuses of opponent's characters.

As for the other issues, I favor leaving it broader. Theoden doesn't suddenly stop being able to make friends just because Frodo went back to Bag End.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Theo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:08 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:27 am
You do not have your opponent's characters in play, so they cannot be used as active conditions for your resource cards.
That isn't entirely accurate. ;)
CRF wrote:Your opponent's resources may be the active conditions for your resources, but may not be the targets for your resources.
Putting aside for the moment that perhaps we need to focus on the use of your opponent's allies (because they are resources) rather than characters (on which we have no explicit guidance regarding active condition satisfaction)...

The only way to tie the presence of a skill keyword on a card to a prerequisite required for the play of that card is by the CRF quote in my original post (the MELE quote you give does not itself create such a tie). For someone who doesn't believe the CRF quote implies the targeting of a character, I'm not sure why they would think it would restrict the "played by" character to be yours.
Last edited by Theo on Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make---or one online community. Cautious skill!

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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:15 am

I believe that skilled character is default target of skill card. I.e. he is a target if a skill card does not state otherwise.
According to the belief " +3 to prowess and -1 to body against a strike." applies to the target warrior.
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Theo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:23 am

Maybe I misunderstood. From the discussion linked in OP:
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:26 am
I think that that following scenario is possible:
Alatar, Bilbo, Frodo are in company. Bilbo bears Beautiful Gold Ring.

Weariness of the Heart is played on Alatar (for 2nd use - cc)
Old Friendship is played on the declared cc.
Call of Home is played in Frodo.
Test of Lore is played on Beautiful Gold Ring.

Test of Lore resolves and Magic Ring of Word is played.
Call of Home resolves and Frodo is returned to hand.
Old Friendship resolves (because still there is a diplomat in company, albeit other diplomat than that at declaration).
Weariness of the Heart resolves .
This suggests to me that you didn't consider the skilled character (Frodo) satisfying the active condition of Old Friendship at declaration to be a target of the card. Or maybe that the target is allowed to change for skill cards (and skill cards alone)?
CRF wrote:Annotation 7: If any other active condition [other than tapping or discarding a card] for an action does not exist when the action is resolved, the action has no effect; if the action was playing a card from your hand, it is discarded.
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Theo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:32 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:27 am
Theoden doesn't suddenly stop being able to make friends just because Frodo went back to Bag End.
But neither should declaring a friendship with Frodo imply that the friendship is transferable to Theoden.
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:35 am

Old Friendship is the card that "states otherwise". It has "influence check against a character" as a target in its 1st use, or "corruption check made by a character in the same company" as a target in its 2nd use.

BTW, CRF entries for New Friendship and Old Friendship are de facto erratas. Text of the cards indicate something different (in their first use).
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:55 am

BTW, your proposal does not include:

Providing that "Foo" is a name of skill, "(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill.

and as such (in current form) competes with: Skill Cards
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am

Theo wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:32 am
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:27 am
Theoden doesn't suddenly stop being able to make friends just because Frodo went back to Bag End.
But neither should declaring a friendship with Frodo imply that the friendship is transferable to Theoden.
Which is why I would object to any new rule forcing a person to declare which Diplomat is trying to bring up friendship. *Any* diplomat should be able to pull out the friendliness to help somebody with a corruption check.

Other counterarguments were made in the reference thread, but it bears repeating that skill requirements are an active condition per the rules and can therefore not target anything, as they are not actions.

This seems convoluted, unnecessary, and flies in the face of more than a few rules and definitions. It doesn't account for item cards that require a skill in order to be borne.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Theo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:32 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am
*Any* diplomat should be able to pull out the friendliness to help somebody with a corruption check.
But once one diplomat decides to "pull out the friendliness" via the declaration one of the friendship cards, a new diplomat should have to start over with a new card, not be able to pick up where a different character left off. If I saddled up to a closest friend of yours in real life and started making references that the two of you shared in childhood, or last week, I would hope they'd regard me with less friendship, not more.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am
Other counterarguments were made in the reference thread, but it bears repeating that skill requirements are an active condition per the rules and can therefore not target anything, as they are not actions.
All requirements are active conditions and don't target anything of themselves... other than target-based active conditions! So here you are falling into a cyclic definition of denial, "cards that are 'played by' a character don't require any target character because... they don't require any target character," instead of considering that "play by" a character implicitly targets that playing character.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am
This seems convoluted, unnecessary, and flies in the face of more than a few rules and definitions. It doesn't account for item cards that require a skill in order to be borne.
Skill requirements on item cards seem to have been historically considered a separate issue?
CoE #50 wrote:How does the "one skill-card pr strike"-rule apply to items?

*** It doesn't. Items are not considered skill cards.
As for convolution... you prefer implicit "skill character is default target of skill card, but not if the card has additional targets"?
Necessity: to the extent that players believe that you should not be able to switch the character playing a card part way through the play of the card.
Face flying: the separate treatment of skill requirements from targeting in MEWH (prior to the CRF clarification) is the only one I've seen that comes close, which is just as easily redundancy in recognition that clarifying the historically implicit targeting wouldn't hurt. Redundancy should not be confused with difference.
Last edited by Theo on Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make---or one online community. Cautious skill!

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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Theo » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:33 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:55 am
BTW, your proposal does not include:

Providing that "Foo" is a name of skill, "(Foo) only" cards can only be played by characters with the (foo) skill.

and as such (in current form) competes with: Skill Cards
Discussion taken to that thread.
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:21 am

Theo wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:32 am
Bandobras Took wrote: ↑
19 Jan 2019, 05:00
*Any* diplomat should be able to pull out the friendliness to help somebody with a corruption check.

But once one diplomat decides to "pull out the friendliness" via the declaration one of the friendship cards, a new diplomat should have to start over with a new card, not be able to pick up where a different character left off. If I saddled up to a closest friend of yours in real life and started making references that the two of you shared in childhood, or last week, I would hope they'd regard me with less friendship, not more.
It assumes that Old/New Friendship symbolizes what you says it symbolizes.
Some friendship between the Diplomat and the character performing cc.
I do not know what Old/New Friendship symbolizes, especially if there is only one Diplomat in company and he is performing cc targeted by the card. Maybe recalling a friendship between the character performing cc and someone else than a/the Diplomat?
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:59 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:27 am
This isn't entirely accurate.
MELE wrote:Condition, Active: A prerequisite for an action actively made by a player. Typically this involves tapping a character, discarding an item, or having a character of a particular skill in play.
You do not have your opponent's characters in play, so they cannot be used as active conditions for your resource cards.

Overall, I believe the quote from the MELE rulebook covers potential abuses of opponent's characters.

As for the other issues, I favor leaving it broader. Theoden doesn't suddenly stop being able to make friends just because Frodo went back to Bag End.
The phrase quoted by you is a description.
"Typically" is not absolute restriction. If it would be then it would not be known, how to play Gnaw with Words.
To target my own sage that, at the same time, must be in company taking its M/H phase?
Gnaw with Words wrote:Tap a sage if another sage in his company or at his current site or at his new site. Alternatively, tap a diplomat if another diplomat is in his company or at his current site or at his new site. 'Small comfort will those two have in their companionship: they will gnaw one another with words. ...If Wormtongue ever comes out of Orthanc alive, it will be more than he deserves.'-LotRIII
EDIT:
"To target his own" -> "To target my own"
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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:34 pm

Theo wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:32 am
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am
*Any* diplomat should be able to pull out the friendliness to help somebody with a corruption check.
But once one diplomat decides to "pull out the friendliness" via the declaration one of the friendship cards, a new diplomat should have to start over with a new card, not be able to pick up where a different character left off. If I saddled up to a closest friend of yours in real life and started making references that the two of you shared in childhood, or last week, I would hope they'd regard me with less friendship, not more.
Again, that only makes sense if what you're proposing to change is already in place. As matters currently stand, when you declare Old Friendship, you're saying that the character facing the corruption check is going to be helped by remembering an old friendship. Nothing even says that the Old Friendship is a friendship with the Diplomat. Perhaps the Diplomat is only reminding them how much they like Mr. Wizard. And any Diplomat can do that.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am
Other counterarguments were made in the reference thread, but it bears repeating that skill requirements are an active condition per the rules and can therefore not target anything, as they are not actions.
All requirements are active conditions and don't target anything of themselves... other than target-based active conditions! So here you are falling into a cyclic definition of denial, "cards that are 'played by' a character don't require any target character because... they don't require any target character," instead of considering that "play by" a character implicitly targets that playing character.
I'm sorry, where did you get the idea that there are target-based active conditions? Targets are entities through which an action plays out. The rules flat-out state that active conditions are not actions. Therefore, it is impossible for them to target.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:00 am
This seems convoluted, unnecessary, and flies in the face of more than a few rules and definitions. It doesn't account for item cards that require a skill in order to be borne.
Skill requirements on item cards seem to have been historically considered a separate issue?
CoE #50 wrote:How does the "one skill-card pr strike"-rule apply to items?

*** It doesn't. Items are not considered skill cards.
I have no idea where this particular reasoning comes from. You can play up to one card requiring a skill when facing a strike. Any relevant items aren't played at that time; they are already in play. This doesn't prevent Black Arrow from being Warrior Only.
As for convolution... you prefer implicit "skill character is default target of skill card, but not if the card has additional targets"?
Necessity: to the extent that players believe that you should not be able to switch the character playing a card part way through the play of the card.
Face flying: the separate treatment of skill requirements from targeting in MEWH (prior to the CRF clarification) is the only one I've seen that comes close, which is just as easily redundancy in recognition that clarifying the historically implicit targeting wouldn't hurt. Redundancy should not be confused with difference.
I prefer what's actually in the rules. Active Conditions are not Actions and therefore do not have targets. Having a character of a particular skill in play is an active condition.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Re: Skill cards target character with skill

Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:43 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:59 am
Bandobras Took wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:27 am
This isn't entirely accurate.
MELE wrote:Condition, Active: A prerequisite for an action actively made by a player. Typically this involves tapping a character, discarding an item, or having a character of a particular skill in play.
You do not have your opponent's characters in play, so they cannot be used as active conditions for your resource cards.

Overall, I believe the quote from the MELE rulebook covers potential abuses of opponent's characters.

As for the other issues, I favor leaving it broader. Theoden doesn't suddenly stop being able to make friends just because Frodo went back to Bag End.
The phrase quoted by you is a description.
"Typically" is not absolute restriction. If it would be then it would not be known, how to play Gnaw with Words.
To target my own sage that, at the same time, must be in company taking its M/H phase?
Yes, but the description includes having a character with a particular skill in play. Therefore, that falls under the list of active conditions. A non-typical active condition is a corruption check (The One Ring), but that doesn't mean that discarding an item can't be an active condition.
Gnaw with Words wrote:Tap a sage if another sage in his company or at his current site or at his new site. Alternatively, tap a diplomat if another diplomat is in his company or at his current site or at his new site. 'Small comfort will those two have in their companionship: they will gnaw one another with words. ...If Wormtongue ever comes out of Orthanc alive, it will be more than he deserves.'-LotRIII
EDIT:
"To target his own" -> "To target my own"
I don't understand. The active condition here isn't to have a sage/diplomat in play; it's that there be a sage/diplomat in his company or at his new/current site. It isn't "Sage Only" (see Palantir of Annuminas). The action targets such a sage/diplomat. The non-typical condition for card play is the location of various characters/hazard agents with a given skill.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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