Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

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Konrad Klar
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Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:51 pm

Texts of Palantír cards do not clearly separate an actions that are effects of using a Palantír (for which an ability of using a/this Palantír is required) from rest of actions that happen after using a Palantír, or which happen without requiring ability of using a/the Palantír.

Problem becomes visible when a given Palantír is used to duplicate an effect of other Palantír.
Is a corruption check that happens as last action listed in Palantír cards text an effect of the Palantír?
If so, should a bearer of Palantír of Osgiliath, that taps it to duplicate the effect of Palantír of Minas Tirith, make two corruption checks (one from Palantír of Osgiliath, other from Palantír of Minas Tirith)?

Proposed regulation:

The following list contains texts of Palantíri that create an effects for which an ability of using a/this Palantír is required. The underlined fragments of texts are effects of a using a/this Palantír. Not all Palantíri are listed, because some of them do not create such effects.
Palantír of Amon Sûl (METW version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. If the bearer's company is ever below 2 characters and the company moves, discard the Palantír. 5 marshalling points if stored in a Haven [-me_ha-] . With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Amon Sûl to look at your opponent's hand or tap it to use the abilities of either the Palantír of Annúminas or the Palantír of Elostirion if either one is in play. Bearer makes a corruption check.
Palantír of Annúminas (METW version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Annúminas to search through your play deck and discard pile for a sage only card. Put this card in your hand. Reshuffle your play deck. Bearer makes a corruption check. The Palantíri came from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar.-LotRIII
Palantír of Minas Tirith (METW version), (MELE version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. Playable only at Minas Tirith. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Minas Tirith to look at the top five cards of your play deck; shuffle these 5 cards and return them to the top of your play deck. Do the same to your opponent's play deck. Bearer makes a corruption check.
Palantír of Orthanc (METW version), (MELE version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. Playable only at Isengard. With its bearer able to use a Palantír and with at least 5 cards in your play deck, tap Palantír of Orthanc to choose one card from your discard pile to place in your play deck (reshuffle the play deck). Bearer makes a corruption check. 'The Stones of Seeing do not lie...'-LotRV
Palantír of Osgiliath (METW version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. If the bearer's company is ever below 4 characters and the company moves, discard. 5 marshalling points if stored in a Haven [-me_ha-] . With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Osgiliath to force the discard of any hazard permanent-event or to duplicate the effect of any Palantír in play. Bearer makes a corruption check. The chief and master of these was under the Dome of Stars at Osgiliath before its ruin.-LotRIII
Palantír of Amon Sûl (MELE version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. If the bearer's company is ever below 2 characters and it moves, discard this item. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Amon Sûl to look at your opponent's hand or tap it to use the abilities of either minion Palantír of Annúminas or minion Palantír of Elostirion if either one is in play. Bearer then makes a corruption check. 5 marshalling points if stored at Barad-dûr.
Palantír of Annúminas (MELE version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Annúminas to take a sage only card from your play deck and/or discard pile into your hand. Reshuffle your play deck. Bearer then makes a corruption check. '...the Men of Westernesse were diminished, and their city, Annúminas...fell into ruin...'-LotRII
Palantír of Elostirion (MELE version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. Playable at The White Towers. Discard if the bearer moves. If the bearer is a sage: your hand size increases by one and the bearer is able to use this Palantír this turn if he taps. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Elostirion to draw a card. Bearer then makes a corruption check.
Palantír of Osgiliath (MELE version) wrote:Unique. Palantír. If the bearer's company is ever below 4 characters and it moves, discard this item. With its bearer able to use a Palantír, tap Palantír of Osgiliath to force the discard of any hazard permanent-event or to duplicate the effect of any minion Palantír in play. Bearer then makes a corruption check. 5 marshalling points if stored at Barad-dûr.
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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:37 pm

Hi Konrad. You are right. This is a little confusing. Just to confirm, we are saying that the CC on "Palantír of Annúminas" should not cause a 2nd CC when using "Palantír of Amon Sûl" to use the abilities of the "Palantír of Annúminas" ? That is, only 1 CC should happen when using a Palantir, not 2 CCs.

First, is there a game-definition of "ability" (since this term is used on the Palantír) ? Maybe it is different from an "effect"? (Which, a CC would normally be an "effect", right?)? Maybe the "ability" (which could be a specific type of effects) of "Palantír of Annúminas" is "search through your play deck and discard pile for a sage only card. Put this card in your hand." Which you have underlined below.
(I'm now realizing I should have stuck to Osgiliath and Minas Tirith as in your example...)

Maybe a more concise clarification could suffice? Let me know what you think and if this would break anything?
When tapping a first Palantír to "use the abilities" of second Palantír in play, any tapping of the 2nd Palantír or corruption check cause by the second Palantír is not an "ability" that is "used" by the first Palantír.

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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:14 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:37 pm
Just to confirm, we are saying that the CC on "Palantír of Annúminas" should not cause a 2nd CC when using "Palantír of Amon Sûl" to use the abilities of the "Palantír of Annúminas" ? That is, only 1 CC should happen when using a Palantir, not 2 CCs.
Yes.
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:37 pm
First, is there a game-definition of "ability" (since this term is used on the Palantír) ? Maybe it is different from an "effect"?
There is no a game-definition of ability or effect of using a Palantír.
For this reason the clarification has been created.
"ability" and "effect" are used interchangeably.
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:37 pm
Maybe a more concise clarification could suffice? Let me know what you think and if this would break anything?

When tapping a first Palantír to "use the abilities" of second Palantír in play, any tapping of the 2nd Palantír or corruption check cause by the second Palantír is not an "ability" that is "used" by the first Palantír.
No. This would allow to duplicate effect of tapping the hero Palantír of Elostirion, that is not effects for which an ability of using a Palantír is required.
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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:30 pm

Konrad, I do agree with your list above.

However, I'm not following your ideas about the hero Palantir of Elostirion. I was just hoping to find a solution that doesn't list the writing of the cards. Still, since you see a distinction, then it is probably better to go with your complete solution.

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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:57 am

I do not want an inconsistency.
Minion Palantír of Elostirion has some effects even if its bearer does not have an ability of using a Palantír.
Tapping a hero Palantír of Elostirion does not require an ability of using a Palantír..
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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:36 am

Hmmm... I have yet to encounter anyone of the opinion that 2 corruption checks might be required when using a Palantir to mimic the abilities of a different one. Seems a stretch to me that this is needed. If this proposal was accepted, what about a more simple clarification for the masses to vote on:
Palantiri - Clarification
While using any Palantir to copy the abilities of another Palantir, only one corruption check is required.
On balance, I don't want to overwhelm the community with a ton of errata which might make an already very complicated game even more complicated. So, for "fringe" proposals where ICE intent seems clear despite their sloppy wording, if an erratum is issued, it should be as clear and concise as possible.

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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:03 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:36 am
Hmmm... I have yet to encounter anyone of the opinion that 2 corruption checks might be required when using a Palantir to mimic the abilities of a different one. Seems a stretch to me that this is needed. If this proposal was accepted, what about a more simple clarification for the masses to vote on:
Palantiri - Clarification
While using any Palantir to copy the abilities of another Palantir, only one corruption check is required.
On balance, I don't want to overwhelm the community with a ton of errata which might make an already very complicated game even more complicated. So, for "fringe" proposals where ICE intent seems clear despite their sloppy wording, if an erratum is issued, it should be as clear and concise as possible.
It may be summary of the errata but not the errata itself.
Players should know the mechanics, not only conclusion that "only one corruption check is required/performed" (that alone would be a dogma).
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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:46 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:03 am
It may be summary of the errata but not the errata itself.
Players should know the mechanics, not only conclusion that "only one corruption check is required/performed" (that alone would be a dogma).
It would not be an erratum at all, it would be a simple clarification to clarify that only 1 corruption check is needed.

Konrad, I appreciate your point of view, but I don't believe most players want to memorize all of the rule mechanics for every situation. They aren't looking to be rule masters. This game is complex. Most players just want to have fun and find a quick answer when they run into a question or problem. Showing them an entire page of card texts and information to essentially say "only 1 corruption check is required" is overwhelming and confusing for many players, and is not what they want. We should simplify the rules of MECCG when possible and make them more accessible to average players, not add complexity and confusion unnecessarily.

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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by Theo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:11 am

A philosophical difference, perhaps.

As for your point at hand, I believe what you desire is the point of a Rules Summary. But the rules themselves should be mechanically consistent.

Note that historically, for example, specific errata was issued for all four of the cards that removed the region in which a Guarded Haven is located from site paths, rather than just one mysterious catchall.

Perhaps we can get the best of both philosophies in this case?

"For the purposes of other Palantirs using their abilities, the "bearer makes a corruption check" effect is not among Palantirs' abilities."
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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:40 am

Proposed clarification:

"bearer makes a corruption check" happens after using a Palantír ability/effect. As such is not considered a part of a Palantír ability (so cc that follows other Palantír ability/effect is not performed when duplicating other Palantír ability/effect).
Note that effect of tapping a hero Palantír of Elostirion is not considered an using a Palantír ability/effect, because it does not require an ability of using a Palantír.
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Re: Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification)

Post by the Jabberwock » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:01 am

Theo wrote: As for your point at hand, I believe what you desire is the point of a Rules Summary. But the rules themselves should be mechanically consistent.

Note that historically, for example, specific errata was issued for all four of the cards that removed the region in which a Guarded Haven is located from site paths, rather than just one mysterious catchall.
I think this is a completely different case, and I do support the 4 separate erratum when there is a clear change being made to the cards. However, in the case of this proposal, it is a subjective matter as to how to interpret “use the abilities” of another palantir or “duplicate the effects” of another palantir. As such, it’s a matter of opinion and I feel a concise clarification is more appropriate than a lengthy mechanical erratum or clarification.

Thanks to both of you for offering a shorter, more straight-forward suggestion.


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