Council of Elrond

Parsimony of Seclusion wrote:Return any Dragon manifestation to your hand from your discard pile. Alternatively, return any manifestation of Agburanar to your hand from your discard pile and increase the hazard limit by two. ...all the land was desolate and empty.-Hob

Some time ago a question has been raised whether in alternative use the Parsimony of Seclusion increases a hazard limit even if for any reason a manifestation of Agburanar cannot be returned to hand.
An opinions have been expressed that, according to literal interpretation of the text of the card, it is possible, but also that it is not intended and unwanted behavior.

Relates thread:
Parsimony of Seclusion

I propose the following erratum:

Return any Dragon manifestation to your hand from your discard pile. Alternatively, return any manifestation of Agburanar to your hand from your discard pile and (if returned) increase the hazard limit by two. ...all the land was desolate and empty.-Hob

EDIT: "An opinions has been" -> "An opinions have been"

Is it a related (or separate?) issue that the "any" could be interpreted as "any number of"? Perhaps changing "any" to "one" would be helpful, since it would trigger the targeting active condition (which has no contention whatsoever! ) since it explicitly refers to one in your discard pile.

Singular form - Dragon manifestation - is sufficiently clear.
The card has no active conditions. Appropriate manifestation does not must be in discard pile at declaration/resolution of the card.

This proposal is a good idea. I think "any" vs "a" is a good clarification too.

(Proposed) CRF - Card Errata and Rulings wrote: Removed. See later post.

There is also a CoE rulings indicating that you can retrieve dragon factions. Seems cheezy but as far as I can tell it works.

CoE 10 wrote:3. Can I retrieve dragon factions from the discard pile with Parsimony of Seclusion or can I only retrieve
hazard manifestations of dragons?
*** Eloquently answered by Andy Fredricksen but edited for length by yours truly: Nothing prevents a hazard
from targeting a resource, and the Dragon factions are unique manifestations so yes.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:35 pm Card Erratum: Change "Return any Dragon manifestation" to "Return a Dragon manifestation." Change "and increase the hazard limit" to "to increase the hazard limt".

This is an abusing of "to" phrase.
Returning a Dragon manifestation and increasing the hazard limt are results of Parsimony of Seclusion.
Returning a Dragon manifestation is not condition of increasing the hazard limit.

I think I see your point. I will see what language other cards use in this situation.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:35 pm CoE 10 wrote:
3. Can I retrieve dragon factions from the discard pile with Parsimony of Seclusion or can I only retrieve
hazard manifestations of dragons?
*** Eloquently answered by Andy Fredricksen but edited for length by yours truly: Nothing prevents a hazard
from targeting a resource, and the Dragon factions are unique manifestations so yes.

That suggests that Parsimony of Seclusion targets a card not in play.
Something prevents any action from doing so, so if only Parsimony of Seclusion would do it explicitly...
It does not.

The fact that it would require that the target is in your discard pile is sufficient to except it from the general rule, in my opinion.

Fact is that unlike e.g. Exhalation of Decay, Parsimony of Seclusion is not playable (by its text) on card in discard pile.
Player does not specify at declaration of Parsimony of Seclusion a card that he want to return.

But the player would need to if the wording was changed to "a". Emphasis on "would" in my previous post.

Because?
"a" or "an" is equivalent of "one"?
For other reason?

Just a quick check: where is it written that the target of an action must be in play?

Edit: never mind, found it under active conditions.

Annotation 8 needs to be revised. It is impossible to bring any card to your hand from play, otherwise, because the card will not be in play when the action resolves.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:53 pm Annotation 8 needs to be revised. It is impossible to bring any card to your hand from play, otherwise, because the card will not be in play when the action resolves.

When the action resolves, then the target card in play is returned/discarded* from play. Not before.

*) Yes. The same applies to discarding a card from play.

An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved.

The card must be in play when the action resolves, but when the action resolves, the card is moved out of play. When it resolves, not after it resolves.

It doesn't work because the card moving to hand/discard pile is simultaneous with the resolution of the action, at which point they're not in play, so the action can't have discarded them, so they're in play, so they're discarded . . .

At the very least, it needs better wording.

Instead of "when the action is declared" and "when it is resolved," I think

"when attempting to declare the action and when attempting to resolve the action"

would work better.

Annotation 8 completely disables targeting cards in the discard pile or in the hand, as they are not in play. At the very least, it should say "An action that requires an in-play target is considered"

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:38 pm The card must be in play when the action resolves, but when the action resolves, the card is moved out of play. When it resolves, not after it resolves.

It doesn't work because the card moving to hand/discard pile is simultaneous with the resolution of the action, at which point they're not in play, so the action can't have discarded them, so they're in play, so they're discarded . . .

You can say exactly the same about most actions that change a state of target.

Playable on untapped X. Tap X.

At the moment when action resolves X is no longer untapped.

There is no time (to declare anything) between resolution and execution of action.
There is also no time (to declare anything) between body check dice-roll and moment when its result is known. But it does not mean that a character performing bc was already dead at time of roll (or not dead if he was the cat of Schrödinger by occasion).

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:38 pm Annotation 8 completely disables targeting cards in the discard pile or in the hand, as they are not in play. At the very least, it should say "An action that requires an in-play target is considered"

Not completely. Text of a card may overcome it explicitly. Text of most cards do not do so.