WITHDRAWN: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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WITHDRAWN: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:24 pm

CRF, Errata (Cards), Aware of Their Ways wrote:Consider sites to be unique cards for the play of this card.
I propose the following change:

"Consider site cards and other cards that can be played as a site cards to be unique cards for purposes of interpreting this card."

This would prevent a situation when a company is enforced to return to its site of origin after completing its M/H phase but the card representing its site of origin has been removed from play by Aware of Their Ways.

P.S.
I realize that there are other means of solving of the problem, e.g. returning a card representing a site of origin to play only for purposes of a hosting a returned company.
Additionally the above fix is not complete. It may happen that after completing of M/H of to be returned company, a play deck has been exhausted and a card representing a site of origin is in new play deck, prone to removing from game by Desire All for Thy Belly.
Complementary fix will be published in other tread.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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the Jabberwock
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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:59 am

Hmm,

Seems statistically very unlikely....

Player A is using Wondrous Maps/Morannon on the same turn that Player B plays Aware of Their Ways.

Furthermore, I'm confused how this situation is a problem. Once a company's M/H phase is over, the site of origin is discarded (or returned to location deck). At this point, it is too late for a later-played Aware of Their Ways to return that company to its site of origin. (At least, it is too late for how I think most players currently interpret the rules. I will admit, there is some ambiguity as it depends on what side of this debate you take: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3544 , so only if you adopt Option #2 would your proposal be relevant). Unless there is something I am missing, it seems we should await the outcome of the linked ballot item before even discussing whether or not this clarification/erratum is worth considering).

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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:30 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:59 am
Once a company's M/H phase is over, the site of origin is discarded (or returned to location deck). At this point, it is too late for a later-played Aware of Their Ways to return that company to its site of origin.
Illegal company composition (end of all company M/H phases).
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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by the Jabberwock » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:34 am

Theo wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:30 am
the Jabberwock wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:59 am
Once a company's M/H phase is over, the site of origin is discarded (or returned to location deck). At this point, it is too late for a later-played Aware of Their Ways to return that company to its site of origin.
Illegal company composition (end of all company M/H phases).
Will you please provide a specific example and quote the related rule. Thanks.

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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:40 am

CRF wrote:If companies would join at the end of the movement/hazard phase such that the company composition rules are violated, one company of the hazard player's choice must return to its site of origin.
I'm not aware of any minion cards that are used as a site. But Fallen Wizards are prevented from having orcs/trolls with non-men heroes.

Some Orc is chilling at minion Ettenmoors. Some Elf is hanging out in a Refuge. Elf moves to Ettenmoors; Refuge discarded. Orc doesn't move; Refuge removed from the game. Elf must return to Refuge; shucks.
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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by Theo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:05 am

Perhaps a more realistic (less player stupidity) example?

Orc at minion Ettenmoors. Elf at Refuge. Elf moves to Ettenmoors; Refuge discarded. Orc moves to Mount Gundabad; Refuge removed from the game; opponent discards Baduila; Orc returns to Ettenmoors. Elf must return to Refuge. Shucks.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by the Jabberwock » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:04 am

"So you're telling me there's a chance!" .... Dumb and Dumber

Man, it just seems like the odds of all of this happening are so slim:
- Fallen-wizard player using both Orcs/Trolls and Elves/Dwarves/Dunedain
- Fallen-wizard player moving conflicting race companies to the same site (or one company leaving while the other arrives)
- Fallen-wizard player using at the same time a site-replacement resource card
- Hazard player playing Aware of Their Ways immediately during the second M/H phase and choosing the site-replacement resource
- Hazard player has Baduila and uses him (or some other return to originating site effect during the 2nd M/H phase)

I'm having a hard time feeling the long odds of this happening are worth the community voting on a clarification/erratum. :?

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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:15 pm

MELE Limitations on Company Composition wrote:Note: If two companies end up at a non-Darkhaven site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition, one of the companies that just moved must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled (e.g., We Have Come to Kill)
Is this rule the only requirement causing the issue? I think that if Refuge was the site of origin, then it is the site that the company is returned to. There is no issue with returning an event site-card that no matter where it is. The returning requirement says nothing to limit where the card can be retrieved from (deck, discard, out of play).

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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:54 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:15 pm
The returning requirement says nothing to limit where the card can be retrieved from (deck, discard, out of play).
Indeed. I think that I have attacked problem from wrong side.
Therefore I'm withdrawing the proposal.
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Re: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:07 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:54 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:15 pm
The returning requirement says nothing to limit where the card can be retrieved from (deck, discard, out of play).
Indeed. I think that I have attacked problem from wrong side.
Therefore I'm withdrawing the proposal.
Another interesting statement is made in the MELE Standard Rules regarding "moving companies to the same non-darkhaven site":
If two companies end up at a site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition (see page 57), one of these companies must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled.
There might be a better way to resolve it. But I wonder if the return to origin effect on the company (e.g., from Baduila) would be canceled.

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Re: WITHDRAWN: Aware of Their Ways (clarification)

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:22 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:07 pm
There might be a better way to resolve it. But I wonder if the return to origin effect on the company (e.g., from Baduila) would be canceled.
Returning to a site of origin does not cause by itself a violation of a company composition rules. Joining a returned and other company at non-(Dark/Wizard)haven site may cause.

Rules do to define what to do in such case.
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