Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Konrad Klar
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Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:17 pm

Lidless Eye, Using MELE with METW, The Cards and Decks, Deck Construction wrote:Only Ringwraith players may include minion characters, resources, and sites in their decks, while only Wizard players may include hero characters, resources, and sites in their decks.

However, there is an exception to this: a Ringwraith player may use any hero item resource card as if it were a minion item resource card. Similarly, a Wizard player may use any minion item resource card as if it were a hero item resource card. The following apply:

All normal requirements must be met to play the item.
All restrictions to movement still apply.
All bonuses and special abilities are ignored.
The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points.
The hero version of a unique item is a manifestation of the same minion version of the item and vice versa.
Implication of above text is that "inclusion a card in deck" is synonymous to "using a card", or that "inclusion a card in deck" is superset of "using a card".
I am convinced that there is no dependency between the terms.

I propose the following erratum:

"Only minion players may include minion characters, resources, and sites in their decks, while only hero players may include hero characters, resources, and sites in their decks.

However, there is an exception to this: a minion player may include any hero item resource card as if it were a minion item resource card. Similarly, a hero player may include any minion item resource card as if it were a hero item resource card. The following apply:

All normal requirements must be met to play the item.
All restrictions to movement still apply.
All bonuses and special abilities are ignored.
The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points.
The hero version of a unique item is a manifestation of the same minion version of the item and vice versa."

The erratum also replaces occurrences of phrases "Ringwraith" with "minion" and "Wizard" with "hero".
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CDavis7M
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Re: Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:00 pm

Any minimal improvement in clarity provided by this change is outweighed by the lack of clarity created by the fact that there was a change at all. It leaves the reader guessing as to the intention and causes unneeded concern to players who are reading the changes at a later time without viewing this thread.

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by Bandobras Took » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:04 am

It needs to say "include and use" to allow play of the items.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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CDavis7M
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Re: Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:15 am

"Inclusion" of the card in the deck is implied from "a Ringwraith player may use any hero item resource card as if it were a minion item resource card." How else could the player use the card if it were not included in their deck? They couldn't. So clearly they can "include" the card by virtue of the "use" allowance.

It would be nice to focus people's energy on contentious issues.

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Theo
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Re: Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by Theo » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:26 am

A player could reveal the card to decrease opponent's MP by 1 for a duplicate manifestation. Some might say that this is using the card, but it is not use of the card as an item.
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Re: Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by Sam.Gamdschie » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:51 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:15 am
It would be nice to focus people's energy on contentious issues.
From my perspective, we are currently discussing several issues for the ARV which are more or less hypothetical and have (nearly) nothing to do with real world issue in real games.

Also, it is quite clear, that the rules of this game are far from being precise (in every aspect), just see the following comment.
Bandobras Took wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:19 pm
Boy, are the rules are a mess.
However, we can either have debates of some hypothetical aspects of the game, like the wording "Ringwraith player" vs. the wording "minion" here in this thread. Or we focus on some real problems were game mechanics are abused (like the mentioned FW Palantir erratum).
Futhermore, the game is living in playing it. Even if some points out here, that we are playing this or that wrongly for 20 years or more, then we should consider the common game play as a (new) rule. (What we did with the FW Orc and Troll rules.) At least playing the game should be fun which is why we are all here, I guess.

On the other hand, we are missing a complete set of definite and precise rules, which include the latest erratas, clarifications and rulings which we agreed on. This should be the URD one day, which can then be refined to clarify / rule out the issues mentioned in this year's ARV. So at one day, we can rewrite Bandobras Took's post and say: "Boy, are the rules great."
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Bandobras Took
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Re: Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction

Post by Bandobras Took » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:17 pm

Sam.Gamdschie wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:51 am
Futhermore, the game is living in playing it. Even if some points out here, that we are playing this or that wrongly for 20 years or more, then we should consider the common game play as a (new) rule. (What we did with the FW Orc and Troll rules.) At least playing the game should be fun which is why we are all here, I guess.
I happily consider the common gameplay the new rule -- so long as the common gameplay can be established, which is the point of the votes. I also believe that preventing abuse is a higher priority than common gameplay, so I approve of threads like this one. It's as often as not in the nitpicky little details of wording that some of the biggest abuses happen, or can happen.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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