Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:38 pm

CRF, Turn Sequence, Organization Phase wrote:Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site
path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is
revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves,
the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on
the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the
correct conditions are met.
Rules does not say how the mentioned effects interact with actions caused by passive conditions.

If for example a company on which Secret Passage has been played moves from Rivendell to Zarak Dûm; Scorba Ahunt and Snowstorm are in play; a timing is uncertain.
There are three actions/effects that compete for be first declared at beginning of M/H phase:
Effect of Secret Passage, attack from Scorba Ahunt, returning effect of Snowstorm.

Proposed regulation:

"For purpose of timing an effects played during the organization phase that depend on the site or site path of a moving company are treated as action caused by passive condition."

EDIT: Corrected ridiculous title of thread.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path ofite or site path of a moving com

Post by Theo » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:30 am

Do you see any concern for interaction with:
CRF wrote:A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the action resolves, or else the action is canceled.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path ofite or site path of a moving com

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:34 am

No.
Moment in which an action/effect may be canceled/fizzled is matter of timing.
Reason for which an action/effect is canceled/fizzled is not matter of timing.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path ofite or site path of a moving com

Post by Theo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:22 am

Hmm, I'd like to suggest different wording then, since it seems like the existing CRF speaks of the org effects creating additional effects, but your proposal only discusses organization effects. This is under my impression that your purpose is to clarify that the hazard player (under Annotation 26) gets to choose the order of these effects.

"Effects that would resolve during the organization phase and depend on the site or site path of a moving company instead establish a passive condition until end of turn to create effects equal to the originals, the condition for which is that a new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the triggered effect resolves, the passive condition is also removed. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the passive condition triggers separately for each phase, where the triggered effect only successfully resolves if the correct conditions are met."

Or perhaps there is some edge case I haven't considered?

(I've also pondered whether the extra triggers should not be allowed, but that would be for a separate thread.)
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:34 am

Oh no.

It may be eventually:

"An effects played during the organization phase that depend on the site or site path of a moving company are declared as though they would be an actions caused by passive condition. I. e. they follow a rules that decide about order of the declarations of an actions caused by passive condition and their declarations may interleave with declarations of an actions caused by passive condition."
Theo wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:22 am
Hmm, I'd like to suggest different wording then, since it seems like the existing CRF speaks of the org effects creating additional effects, but your proposal only discusses organization effects. This is under my impression that your purpose is to clarify that the hazard player (under Annotation 26) gets to choose the order of these effects
If think that "Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company" have nothing to do with Annotation 26.
Annotation 26 speaks about player's M/H phase that takes place even if there is no player's companies (thus no company's M/H phases).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Theo » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:06 pm

I'm not sure we're speaking to the same concern then?

Maybe an example:
Snowstorm in play from previous turn.
Organization phase: Resource player places a site card face down to declare movement for a company in Rivendell. Resource player plays Hey! Come Merry Dol! on the company
Transitions to M/H phase. Revealed site is Ettenmoors.

My impressions are:
  1. Hey! Come Merry Dol! halving effect fits under current CRF
  2. CRF causes the Hey! Come Merry Dol! effect, which would otherwise be uninterpretable because there is no company site path when it resolves, to "create an effect" (presumably a duplicate?) which is not declared until the new site is revealed.
  3. On further thought I agree with you, Annotation 26 only concerns effects that are already "in play," so shouldn't concern this situation. (Aside: now I'm uncertain about what effects would ever be considered "in play"... bonuses to prowess or the like?)
  4. In that case, the resource player gets to choose the order to resolve the Snowstorm passive condition effect under Annotation 10, but Hey! Come Merry Dol! effect is not currently considered to be caused by a passive condition so it is ambiguous when it should resolve in relation to the passive condition.
Under your first proposal, my impression is:
  1. The original Hey! Come Merry Dol! effect, which was declared during the Organization phase when the short event resolved, is now treated for timing purposes as though it is an action caused by a passive condition. But what does this achieve?
  2. The effect (or effects, if multiple M/H phases) created by the CRF, which isn't declared until the new site is revealed, is unaffected. It is still ambiguous how the timing of this effect interacts with actions caused by passive conditions.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:57 pm

Effect of Hey! Come Merry Dol! is not "Effect played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company"
It works unconditionally [if there is zero of [-me_wi-] in company's site path it halves it (rounding down) to zero anyway).

Maybe I should explain a meaning of the rule quoted in first post as I understand it.

By example.
A company on which Secret Passage has been played moves from Rivendell to Zarak Dûm; Doors of Night is in play.
Effect of Secret Passage is declared, opponent respond with Chocking Shadows on [-me_rl-].
Chain of effects resolves. Zarak Dûm is treated as [-me_sh-], so effect of Secret Passage does not work.
And cannot be activated for the rest of the M/H phase by restoring Zarak Dûm to [-me_rl-].

Or
A company on which Secret Passage has been played moves from Rivendell to Mount Gram; Gates of Morning is in play.
Effect of Secret Passage is declared, player plays in response Quiet Lands on [-me_sh-]
Chain of effects resolves. Mount Gram is treated as [-me_rl-], so effect of Secret Passage works.
And cannot be deactivated for the rest of the M/H phase by restoring Mount Gram to [-me_sh-].

Proposed regulation tries to solve banal problem.
Because at the beginning of company's M/H phase both effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company AND actions caused by passive conditions may be declared, something must be decided about order of the declarations. Pro forma.

I do not see at the moment a situation where such or another order of declarations an effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company may affect actions caused by passive condition declared in the same chain. Or vice-versa.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Theo » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:30 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:57 pm
Effect of Hey! Come Merry Dol! is not "Effect played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company"
It works unconditionally [if there is zero of [-me_wi-] in company's site path it halves it (rounding down) to zero anyway).
I agree that whether or not the effect can happen does not depend on the site path; it can always happen. But the effect itself (the outcome of the effect resolution) definitively depends on the site path.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:24 am

Effect of Hey! Come Merry Dol! affects path, but is not depend on path.
Effect of The Balance of Things affects character's corruption points total, but is not depend on character's corruption points total.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Theo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:26 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:24 am
Effect of The Balance of Things affects character's corruption points total, but is not depend on character's corruption points total.
But does depend on whichever corruption point source its player chooses.

My stance on Hey! Come Merry Dol! is not changed.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:18 am

The effect of The Balance of Things exists whether there are any characters, or sources of corruption in play.
It does not cause any actions. It changes an amount of CPs that some sources give.
If character without sources of corruption acquires its first source of corruption it is automatically affected by the effect of The Balance of Things.

The effect of Hey! Come Merry Dol! exists whether there is company's path, or [-me_wi-] in the path.
It does not cause any actions. It changes a number of [-me_wi-] in company's path.
If a new [-me_wi-] appears in company's path, or existing is removed the effect of Hey! Come Merry Dol! automatically recalculates the number.

There is no: "the site or site path [that] is not of the appropriate type" for Hey! Come Merry Dol! , as there is no such site or site path for Roam the Waste for comparison.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Theo » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:07 pm

It seems like you are treating "depends on the site path" as synonymous with "site path is of appropriate type". These are not synonymous. Hey! Come Merry Dol! will never not be able to resolve during the M/H phase under the referenced CRF rule. However, there is no meaning for it resolving during the organization phase when it needs to be played because its effect cannot be interpreted without a site path (thus depends on there being a site path).

(Well, other than our discussion in the Chill Douser/Uruk Lieutenant thread about effects being implemented immediately and effecting things that don't yet exist. I don't think that should be happening here, though, because Hey! Come Merry Dol! does not stipulate it's effect is limited to only site paths until end of turn. We'd have to read it as effecting all sites paths of the company forever, unless it falls under the site path dependency requirement of the referenced CRF rule instead.)
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
Have I not earnestly studied this matter?
Look up "e.g." if e.g. you think that it is an all-encompassing list.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:57 am

Theo wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:30 pm
I agree that whether or not the effect can happen does not depend on the site path; it can always happen. But the effect itself (the outcome of the effect resolution) definitively depends on the site path.
So there is a card, its effect, and effect that the former effect has on play.
Say it "outcome", or "result" and do not mix with former effect.

"Hey! Come Merry Dol!" is a card.
"Number of [-me_wi-] in company's path is halved" is an effect.
"There is only one [-me_wi-] in path of company moving from Rivendell to Bree" is outcome/result.

There is not "if", "for each", "for every". Effect of the card is not declared at beginning of M/H phase as effect of Stealth is not declared at the point.
It is already active and does what its text says.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
the Jabberwock
Council Chairman
Posts: 1130
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:46 am

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by the Jabberwock » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:51 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:38 pm
Proposed regulation:

"For purpose of timing an effects played during the organization phase that depend on the site or site path of a moving company are treated as action caused by passive condition."
I would like to confirm... your proposal, if passed, would mean the hazard player gets to choose the order in which both applicable resources and hazards triggered from passive conditions would be declared and resolve?

I also think Secret Passage is perhaps a bad example to use? Does it matter in the case of Secret Passage whether it resolves before or after the Ahunt Dragon and Snowstorm? Either way, the hazard player may not play any hazard creatures on the company.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 2572
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland
Contact:

Re: Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:04 am

the Jabberwock wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:51 pm
I would like to confirm... your proposal, if passed, would mean the hazard player gets to choose the order in which both applicable resources and hazards triggered from passive conditions would be declared and resolve?
No, player taking his turn (resource player) will choose.
the Jabberwock wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:51 pm
I also think Secret Passage is perhaps a bad example to use? Does it matter in the case of Secret Passage whether it resolves before or after the Ahunt Dragon and Snowstorm? Either way, the hazard player may not play any hazard creatures on the company.
Obviously the hazard player may not play any hazard creatures in response to declaration(s) of effect of Secret Passage, attacks from Ahunts, "return" action from Snowstorm.
He may play them not sooner than in next chain of effects.

For resolution of effect of Secret Passage it only matters whether new site is [-me_rl-] at resolution, or not.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:57 pm
Proposed regulation tries to solve banal problem.
Because at the beginning of company's M/H phase both effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company AND actions caused by passive conditions may be declared, something must be decided about order of the declarations. Pro forma.
I think that you did not read it.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

Post Reply

Return to “2019 Annual Rules Vote - Submissions”